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Old 29-11-2013, 20:43   #46
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Re: AIS Application for ipad?

Yeah, okay - a "technical" hijack - it's a related question and as the second post on the thread asked "how are you receiving AIS"? I figured it was relevant.

So the "AIS Apps" use land-based clients that can have delays and so can't be relied upon for nav purposes....I get that....

But the word "application" as used by the OP does *not* necessarily exclude other means of receiving AIS info than simply "iPad Apps" from iTunes.

And receiving AIS from either a dedicated receiver, or a VHF radio with AIS functionality, are certainly "applications" that could be utilised to enable AIS overlays on an iPad 'chartplotter'.

OK, so the OP did not ask "how can I get AIS onto my iPad", but that is the question I'm 'assuming' was asked. Shoot me.

Hence my query as to why there is a need to have effectively two GPS units. You're paying for both of them, so if one is redundant, that's a *waste* of money, isn't it?

From what I've been told by those in the know (offline) the iPads GPS would need EITHER functionality added to a chartplotter app (to send its GPS data wirelesly to the AIS/VHF radio), or a dedicated "feed GPS data via wifi to external device" app, which it appears no-one has so far developed.

What I'm trying to get at is that 'dedicated brand name' AIS units - whether receiver only or Class b transponders, seem horrendously expensive, compared to Nav apps. $50 for a chartplotter app; $200 for a dedicated AIS receiver, $1000+ for a Class b transponder.

What I was looking at was based on someone needing to buy both iPad and VHF radio *and* wanting AIS functionality, and finding the cheapest workable solution.

Ideally Class b, but in its absence, receive-only - hence why looking at the SH 2120 (for example).

Essentially, purchasing a 2120 adds about $100 to the cost of similar good quality VHF-only radio, which appears to be cheaper than the cost of a low-end VHF radio plus a dedicated AIS-receiver (like an EM Trek B100 or AMEC CYPHO). And the low end VHF would likely not have DSC functionality, so this is an added bonus.

So apparently cheaper than dedicated VHF plus dedicated AIS receiver.

But as others have acknowledged, the 2120 needs a GPS signal to show 'ownship' and thus the relevant local area shipping (and to assist the DSC function).

So would a hockey puck GPS + wifi-only iPad do the same job as the GPS-enabled iPad - and could this also be cheaper...??

Supplementary question: does anyone know if its posible for the GPS data form the iPad to be used by either a dedicated AIS receiver OR a VHF/AIS/DSC radio? Is my oinformant correct and this is currently "not possible" until someone invents/writes a sepcific "app" for the iPad to enable it?

So in the meantime, a SH 2120 (for example), plus puck GPS, plus wifi-only iPad, would be cheaper than "dedicated VHF plus dedicated AIS receiver plus GPS-enabled iPad"...

And if so, then you'd only need a very simple NMEA to wifi 'bridge' (or router) to carry the merged AIS/GPS data to the iPad, with no need for the 'bridge' or 'multiplexer' to have a GPS function.

So this ought to be cheaper than than using a dedicated 'wifi bridge with GPS' such as the DMK Box 11A GPS at $500.

So my question basically is this - would this cheaper option require a separate "AIS app" as per the OP, or could the "chartplotter app" take it direct (eg: iNavX or Navionics for example?)

And further supplementary: why does a 'receive only' AIS unit start from $200, while Class b tronsponders start fom $900.

Am I missing something here? Why is AIS so expensive?
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Old 29-11-2013, 21:06   #47
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Re: AIS Application for ipad?

Try the DIGITAL YACHT iAIS.
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Old 29-11-2013, 21:08   #48
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At our investment company, we refer to something called an "error cascade." It is a big part of the math within the risk management methodology.

Linking unrelated electronics where you don't have the histories of inter-part conflicts, is asking for a problem (as I read the posts). AIS needs to be stable and reliable. More connections is always less stable.

Before someone blasts me, I tinker with these things too, but own a dedicated chartplotter and am adding a transciever. Based on our recent shopping, they're still a lot cheaper than a funeral.

McGyvering is for when that breaks.

Jeff
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Old 29-11-2013, 21:33   #49
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Re: AIS Application for ipad?

Looked at the DigYacht iAIS, but at GBP320 (or around AUD$600) not a price I'm willing to shell out, although the dedicated iAIS app is a cute trick.

Can the iAIS app work with any other AIS feed, or only that from Digi Yacht device? Not clear on their site....

Also not clear where it accepts GPS data from. Need external GPS, or can the iAIS app take this fomr the GPS and feed it to the device over the wifi bridge...???
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Old 30-11-2013, 02:59   #50
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Re: AIS Application for ipad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzman View Post
So would a hockey puck GPS + wifi-only iPad do the same job as the GPS-enabled iPad - and could this also be cheaper...??

Supplementary question: does anyone know if its posible for the GPS data form the iPad to be used by either a dedicated AIS receiver OR a VHF/AIS/DSC radio? Is my oinformant correct and this is currently "not possible" until someone invents/writes a sepcific "app" for the iPad to enable it?
[...]
So my question basically is this - would this cheaper option require a separate "AIS app" as per the OP, or could the "chartplotter app" take it direct (eg: iNavX or Navionics for example?)
Quote:
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Can the iAIS app work with any other AIS feed, or only that from Digi Yacht device? Not clear on their site....

Also not clear where it accepts GPS data from. Need external GPS, or can the iAIS app take this fomr the GPS and feed it to the device over the wifi bridge...???
The easy one is the second one. Yes: the iAIS app (or the one I tried last year) can take a datafeed from sources other than the digital yacht box. It can also accept external GPS. I was using it to test a serial-to-wireless bridge I'd built from a raspberry pi, an old usb wifi thing which supported master mode, and kplex, my (free) multiplexing software. I had the serial output of a raymarine AIS unit connected to the pi via a usb to serial converter and a cheap gps puck wired to the pi's serial port (later replaced by an adafruit ultimate GPS unit). You could achieve a similar result using OpenCPN's data connections. The iAIS app was running on an ipod touch (no GPS).

For chartplotter apps whether they'll take an external GPS depends on how they're written. AFAIK navionics won't accept any external data (including AIS), iNavX will (according to the documentation: I have no hands-on experience).

To your other question about using the ipad's GPS: First you need an app which makes the ipad's GPS available externally somehow. I researched this earlier this year and recall seeing apps which will create a server on your i-thing that other devices can connect to over the network (limited bandwidth and interest, not owning an iphone/ipad). There are certainly several which will allow you to connect the GPS over bluetooth. But how to connect your multiplexer to these? I've not seen a commercial serial to network multiplexer which will connect to a remote data server and multiplex between multiple network connections, or accept bluetooth. However, once again you could do this with kplex on a pi (or more robust marine computer) and I'm pretty sure you could do it with opencpn.

Would you want to? Well personally I like the GPS which feeds the distress function on my DSC VHF to be hard wired to the radio and powered from the same set of batteries. The wireless connected ipad GPS has too many additional points of failure. That being said, I wouldn't mind using a wireless GPS as a backup. Both kplex and opencpn can prioritise data from different sources and are able to "fail over" to a secondary source if data is not seen from the primary for a given period of time. Again though, I personally wouldn't put another potential point of failure (ie a computer) between GPS and radio. YMMV.

Cost of raspberry pi, power supply and GPS: ~$100. Bit more if your AIS doesn't have USB out and you need a serial to usb converter. Bit less if you have a 12v phone charger already. You can muck about with try to get cheap USB wifi dongles working as an access point (as I did) or take the easier (and more reliable) route and connect it up to a wireless router. Is it physically robust? Not really but you could use alternate hardware if it makes you feel happier. Personally I don't trust computers or electronics at all :-)

I continue to be underwhelmed by what passes for network programming in some of the hugely expensive commercial "marine" serial-to-network devices
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Old 30-11-2013, 18:02   #51
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Re: AIS Application for ipad?

I don't know anything about Commercial marine software, except that the hardware they use is horrendously expensive for someone on a tight budget, and especially for a 'weekend sailor' on a tight budget.

Basically I've concluded that the "lowest cost" option to get a chartplotter on my boat is a 'wifi-only' iPad running iNavX with an external hockey-puck GPS which could also feed GPS data to an AIS receiver/transponder and/or a DSC-equipped VHF radio.

So, essentially, all I would need is a 'multiplexer' that can accept NMEA data from other instruments (such as wind and depth) and from the AIS device (which I believe needs a port capable of running 38400 baud, rather than the standard NMEA 0183/200 4800 baud rate), and send that data over wifi to the iPad.

So something like the DMK Box 11A (GPS), or the Madman Marine 'bridge' (which the developer assures me can be configured for 38400 baud 'on request').

[Obviously the DMK comes with GPS fitted, whereas the Madman Marine unit requires an external puck GPS]

Does that make sense, or is there a better, lower cost solution?
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Old 30-11-2013, 18:47   #52
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How are the iPads with wifi only working with external programs. I think inavx is the only one allowing external input but not sure. Navionics won't play with my external gps but maybe that's a non issue for other input like blue tooth. Navionics with built in GPS iPhone has been quite good. Anyone using an elf or etc... With anything other then navx
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Old 30-11-2013, 22:09   #53
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Re: AIS Application for ipad?

BuZZ

You seem to be light-years ahead. Or cheaper then any before you.

So it seems that you should tell all of us how....... to.

Accomplish your goal.

Hell Be Damned, No safety Ahead.

Lloyd


Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzman View Post
I don't know anything about Commercial marine software, except that the hardware they use is horrendously expensive for someone on a tight budget, and especially for a 'weekend sailor' on a tight budget.

Basically I've concluded that the "lowest cost" option to get a chartplotter on my boat is a 'wifi-only' iPad running iNavX with an external hockey-puck GPS which could also feed GPS data to an AIS receiver/transponder and/or a DSC-equipped VHF radio.

So, essentially, all I would need is a 'multiplexer' that can accept NMEA data from other instruments (such as wind and depth) and from the AIS device (which I believe needs a port capable of running 38400 baud, rather than the standard NMEA 0183/200 4800 baud rate), and send that data over wifi to the iPad.

So something like the DMK Box 11A (GPS), or the Madman Marine 'bridge' (which the developer assures me can be configured for 38400 baud 'on request').

[Obviously the DMK comes with GPS fitted, whereas the Madman Marine unit requires an external puck GPS]

Does that make sense, or is there a better, lower cost solution?
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Old 30-11-2013, 22:25   #54
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Re: AIS Application for ipad?

LOL....it's just that I'm a cheapskate.....and as the development of other tech like computers and cellphones has demonstrated, there is usually a cheaper way of doing the same thing.

I'm no developer....can't do this myself....hence inquiring what will/might work and hoping someone else has already done the 'field testing'...

From what I can see there are entrepreneurial developers seeking 'market share' by supplying devices that do one thing or another, and one or two mainstream or 'commercial' firms attempting to provide low cost versions of "The One With The Lot", to provide direct alternatives to the Big Name brands.

Sure, if you can afford them, go with the Big Name brands. Back up, warranty, spare parts, worldwide dealers etc etc....all good sound reasons for sticking with the majors.

And maybe I'm ahead of the curve, but it does seem to my non-technical eye that *some* of these new-wave small-entrepreneur-type devices *ought* to be able to be made configurable to do what I want.
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Old 30-11-2013, 23:16   #55
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Re: AIS Application for ipad?

If ya didn't know?

I said that tongNcheek.

While it may be possible to skin a cat cheaper then the next guy. It may not be cheaper in the end.

Any commercial venture has to amortize costs. Sometimes costs are the lawsuit settlement for the new fan-dangled eyeglasses that cause someone to become cross-eyed.

Sometimes it just cost more money to invent the wheel then it does to copy it.

Some are Chinese, some are not.

The path to enlightenment is not always the shortest path.

So, pay now, or pay later.

Just don't cheat those that enlighten "US".

Lloyd




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Originally Posted by Buzzman View Post
LOL....it's just that I'm a cheapskate.....and as the development of other tech like computers and cellphones has demonstrated, there is usually a cheaper way of doing the same thing.

I'm no developer....can't do this myself....hence inquiring what will/might work and hoping someone else has already done the 'field testing'...

From what I can see there are entrepreneurial developers seeking 'market share' by supplying devices that do one thing or another, and one or two mainstream or 'commercial' firms attempting to provide low cost versions of "The One With The Lot", to provide direct alternatives to the Big Name brands.

Sure, if you can afford them, go with the Big Name brands. Back up, warranty, spare parts, worldwide dealers etc etc....all good sound reasons for sticking with the majors.

And maybe I'm ahead of the curve, but it does seem to my non-technical eye that *some* of these new-wave small-entrepreneur-type devices *ought* to be able to be made configurable to do what I want.
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Old 01-12-2013, 00:52   #56
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Re: AIS Application for ipad?

LOL...nah, I got the tongue in cheek jibe....but I have a fairly thick skin.

I take your point about amortisation of costs, and the need for a business to return a profit to investors etc etc, but in this modern internet based online-shopping world, retail prices need to be kept 'artificially' high in order to fund all those taking a slice from our dollar.

If there is no practical advantage to buying a Brand Name product from a dealer, who bought it from a local wholesaler, who bought it from a national wholesaler who bought it from the manufacture, then why can't all the middlemen be cut out and the product supplied at a more reasonable cost to the end user?

Sure, I'd rather have a Simrad or Raymarine device, but i simply can't afford one, so rather than do without, I seek out the more cost-effective alternative.

And it appears that slowly, smaller, lower-cost entrepreneurs are entering the various device markets, and offering units that do much the same job for a lot less money than the big guys.

Will they last as long? Are they as well made? Who knows, time will tell.

But it is educational when long-term cruisers with a choice of Raymarine chartplotter or iPad, use the iPad for preference.

If Raymarine et al don't see the writing on the wall, they will be subsumed by easier to use, lower cost alternatives.

Caveat venditor..!!
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:10   #57
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Re: AIS Application for ipad?

BuZZ,

Don't go all unintellectual on me now.

Do you realize that I-Pad was once the apple of everyone's eye?
It happened when Steve had a Job.

Who would of ever guessed that Steve would've had a job.

Especially back when Paul and Bill were flipping Steve the finger.?

If Paul and Bill, wouldn't have been inclined to flip Steve the finger.

Then IBM, might not of been so interested in the ideas that Paul and Bill EXPOSED, that day at the table.

So if one thing lead to another, and Steve took it personal.

We might not even know what a Simrad,RayChem,Furuno....was, certainly we would not know a Garmin, nor, A Standard Ho

Lloyd




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Originally Posted by Buzzman View Post
LOL...nah, I got the tongue in cheek jibe....but I have a fairly thick skin.

I take your point about amortisation of costs, and the need for a business to return a profit to investors etc etc, but in this modern internet based online-shopping world, retail prices need to be kept 'artificially' high in order to fund all those taking a slice from our dollar.

If there is no practical advantage to buying a Brand Name product from a dealer, who bought it from a local wholesaler, who bought it from a national wholesaler who bought it from the manufacture, then why can't all the middlemen be cut out and the product supplied at a more reasonable cost to the end user?

Sure, I'd rather have a Simrad or Raymarine device, but i simply can't afford one, so rather than do without, I seek out the more cost-effective alternative.

And it appears that slowly, smaller, lower-cost entrepreneurs are entering the various device markets, and offering units that do much the same job for a lot less money than the big guys.

Will they last as long? Are they as well made? Who knows, time will tell.

But it is educational when long-term cruisers with a choice of Raymarine chartplotter or iPad, use the iPad for preference.

If Raymarine et al don't see the writing on the wall, they will be subsumed by easier to use, lower cost alternatives.

Caveat venditor..!!
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:18   #58
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Re: AIS Application for ipad?

LOL....too true, too true....

I was contemplating just that the other day, as one of our local newspaper columnists had asked people to submit a sentence that would be unintelligle to someone from 1983.

Here's mine:
"The Round The World yacht’s 16-yr-old skipper fired up her iPad to check her position on the Navionics chartplotter app, noting on the AIS that no commercial ships were in range, checked the flexible solar panels had recharged the LiFePO batteries, then flicked on the digital projector to watch Harry Potter streamed wirelessly from her PC onto the saloon wall."

So while the IBM "PC" was introduced in 1981, it's by no means certain that - in 1983 - it had entered the lexicon as the generic term of a 'personal computer', as it certainly had by the end of the decade, so perhaps only a geek would have recognised that term in 1983, but I guarantee, the notion of a 16-yr-old female sailing a Round The World yacht, alone, would have caused some confusion.
And while a chemsitry student may hav ebeen able to figure out what Lithium Ferrous Phosphate was, it's use in batteries did not commence until much later, and as for Harry potter, video streaming, and wifi....well, the "wirelessly" might have implied "via radio", but would not have indicated what we today recognise.
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:21   #59
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Re: AIS Application for ipad?

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LOL....too true, too true....

I was contemplating just that the other day, as one of our local newspaper columnists had asked people to submit a sentence that would be unintelligle to someone from 1983.

Here's mine:
"The Round The World yacht’s 16-yr-old skipper fired up her iPad to check her position on the Navionics chartplotter app, noting on the AIS that no commercial ships were in range, checked the flexible solar panels had recharged the LiFePO batteries, then flicked on the digital projector to watch Harry Potter streamed wirelessly from her PC onto the saloon wall."
well, now...hat is a big stretch.
isn't?
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:31   #60
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Re: AIS Application for ipad?

DANGER "will ronbin's"


BEAM me UP scotttty!





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