Aground at Elbow Cay

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Vasco

Knowing how difficult it is to get a good shot of the sun in heavy weather from a 500 foot vessel (not to mention stars) I would think a vertical sextant angle off the Hopetown light from a 32 sailboat bobbing about would be useless. Anyway, just a distance off wouldn't help much. But it sure looks good in the textbooks that armchair sailors love.

Thank you!

[earlgray]

Originally Posted by Vasco

Knowing how difficult it is to get a good shot of the sun in heavy weather from a 500 foot vessel (not to mention stars) I would think a vertical sextant angle off the Hopetown light from a 32 sailboat bobbing about would be useless. Anyway, just a distance off wouldn't help much. But it sure looks good in the textbooks that armchair sailors love.

OK, I said earlier that that is my last post on this topic but I have to comment on this....

I did not meant that they should pull sextant strait away from box and start taking sights, when they lost power, especially in the middle of the night, I meant if they continue sailing after losing power, they should know on paper chart where they are.anyone ever heard about DR (dead reckoning), they could in day or two when weather calm down, take sun sight in the morning then noon sight and have a fix and that way they could get easily to Florida, no sweat. If was to raff for sextant they could use hand held compass, take couple of bearings (even in the night)and that is it, big deal. but problem is without their iPhones, iPads and other fancy gadgets they did not have a clue what to do and how to get there to nearest island let alone to Florida.

I know this is harsh but that's it, you liked it or not.


for heaven sake, how people use to navigate just 25 years ago,(how many GPS were around) not to mention 50 years ago or in 1930s.


problem is that this days that most so called cruisers barely can read navigation charts let alone taking sights.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by earlgray

OK, I said earlier that that is my last post on this topic but I have to comment on this....

I did not meant that they should pull sextant strait away from box and start taking sights, when they lost power, especially in the middle of the night, I meant if they continue sailing after losing power, they should know on paper chart where they are.anyone ever heard about DR (dead reckoning), they could in day or two when weather calm down, take sun sight in the morning then noon sight and have a fix and that way they could get easily to Florida, no sweat. If was to raff for sextant they could use hand held compass, take couple of bearings (even in the night)and that is it, big deal. but problem is without their iPhones, iPads and other fancy gadgets they did not have a clue what to do and how to get there to nearest island let alone to Florida.

I know this is harsh but that's it, you liked it or not.


for heaven sake, how people use to navigate just 25 years ago,(how many GPS were around) not to mention 50 years ago or in 1930s.


problem is that this days that most so called cruisers barely can read navigation charts let alone taking sights.

While many might agree with your larger point about over-reliance on electronic navigation generally, the pushback from those familiar with the area is that your generalities don't seem to apply to this particular case.

For example, it sounds like you're assuming that the crew intended to continue on their planned passage to Florida but landed on a beach in the Abacos because of faulty navigation. Maybe I missed it, but do we know whether they actually intended to beach their boat given all the adverse circumstances? Or whether it was even plausible to make it around to safe refuge in Hopetown once they were past the reef? It looks pretty obvious that their decision to pass through the reef was willful, regardless of whether the decision was reasonable under the circumstances or not. In other words, what facts do we know supporting the assumption that this was primarily the result of navigation errors that could have been remedied if they had been able to rely more on paper charts, DR, and a sextant?

Or did I miss some key facts? (hey, it happens . . . )

[boatman61]

Maybe I'm missing something but.. it does not look like they went through the reef.. looking at the pic's in Gords link there's a whole lot of empty horizon out there in the broadside on shot.. like ocean empty.
More than one assumption going on.. especially with someone local stating that sea's are raising a dune on the seaward side of the beached boat. inside the reef.????

[Jim Cate]

Considering the general lack of equipment aboard, why would one expect them to have a sextant aboard... or even a hand bearing compass for that matter? If they were the sorts to rely upon smart phones for their nav instruments, they'd likely use the compass app of the phone for HBC functions and not bother with an expensive (!) HBC.

IMO, the big failure appears to have been to not lay off until dawn and visibility... a methodology we all used to use when making landfall in the dark. These folks seem to have been SSCA members, so perhaps we may learn more of their story via that organization.

Until then, I'd suggest backing off on the criticism. As has been said,, we were not there and know little about how it all played out.

Jim

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by earlgray

I did not meant that they should pull sextant strait away from box and start taking sights, when they lost power, especially in the middle of the night, I meant if they continue sailing after losing power, they should know on paper chart where they are.anyone ever heard about DR (dead reckoning), they could in day or two when weather calm down, take sun sight in the morning then noon sight and have a fix and that way they could get easily to Florida, no sweat. If was to raff for sextant they could use hand held compass, take couple of bearings (even in the night)and that is it, big deal. but problem is without their iPhones, iPads and other fancy gadgets they did not have a clue what to do and how to get there to nearest island let alone to Florida.

.

To get a position using a handheld compass one must know at least one of the features and then one might interpolate the others, such as a headland or high point on land. This is very difficult in the Bahamas as most of the scrubby cays are featureless. And if you have little idea of your DR position, nearly impossible. As for lights at night, virtually non existent and the few there are are usually extinguished. You have obviously not sailed the Bahamas. Non electronic piloting for someone without local knowledge is difficult. In heavy weather it is doubly difficult. Once you know where you are the rest is usually eyeball navigating. When I first sailed there I always made a sketch of the cuts I exited so that I might find it on the way back, and this was usually in very good sea conditions. To sit at home and fault those who were out there without knowing the facts is easily done if one is so inclined. And that's my final say. Enjoy the warmth of your hearth.

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Maybe I'm missing something but.. it does not look like they went through the reef.. looking at the pic's in Gords link there's a whole lot of empty horizon out there in the broadside on shot.. like ocean empty.
More than one assumption going on.. especially with someone local stating that sea's are raising a dune on the seaward side of the beached boat. inside the reef.????

The reefs we speak of in the Bahamas are not like the atolls in the South Pacific. They offer no protection to the beach. To get protection in the Bahamas you usually have to go through a cut and get on the leeward side of the cays. Prevailing winds Easterly. Of course when a front comes through you have to find somewhere else to hide as the wind goes to the West.

The boat in question beached without apparently hitting any of the many reefs or coral heads.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Maybe I'm missing something but.. it does not look like they went through the reef.. looking at the pic's in Gords link there's a whole lot of empty horizon out there in the broadside on shot.. like ocean empty.
More than one assumption going on.. especially with someone local stating that sea's are raising a dune on the seaward side of the beached boat. inside the reef.????

funjohnson's post #43:

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Attachment 162066


The boat is right about here on the chart:

Looks like the boat is beached on the east (seaward) side of Hopetown and the "reef(s)" being discussed are further seaward but probably partially or completely submerged depending on the tide (according to the chart). In this case any reference to the "lagoon" would suggest the shallow water lying to the west of Hopetown, i.e. the water inside the land comprising the Abaco chain. These sorts of features are pretty common in the Bahamas, thus making eyeball navigation all the more important.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Exile

funjohnson's post #43:



Looks like the boat is beached on the east (seaward) side of Hopetown and the "reef(s)" being discussed are further seaward but probably partially or completely submerged depending on the tide (according to the chart). In this case any reference to the "lagoon" would suggest the shallow water lying to the west of Hopetown, i.e. the water inside the land comprising the Abaco chain. These sorts of features are pretty common in the Bahamas, thus making eyeball navigation all the more important.

Cheers Exile..
Oh.. and the lagoon I was referring to was the one you mention.. this is where I now stop using Google Earth for these threads and instead use my chart program.
Elbow Cay appeared to be a high part of the reef chain that forms the lagoon.. the couple of small outer reefs like Elbow Reef did not show.. Opps.
Never gonna use it for real life navigation for sure..

[Exile]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Cheers Exile..
Oh.. and the lagoon I was referring to was the one you mention.. this is where I now stop using Google Earth for these threads and instead use my chart program.
Elbow Cay appeared to be a high part of the reef chain that forms the lagoon.. the couple of small outer reefs like Elbow Reef did not show.. Opps.
Never gonna use it for real life navigation for sure..

You can apparently overlay them! If only I knew how . . . .

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Considering the general lack of equipment aboard, why would one expect them to have a sextant aboard... or even a hand bearing compass for that matter? If they were the sorts to rely upon smart phones for their nav instruments, they'd likely use the compass app of the phone for HBC functions and not bother with an expensive (!) HBC.

IMO, the big failure appears to have been to not lay off until dawn and visibility... a methodology we all used to use when making landfall in the dark. These folks seem to have been SSCA members, so perhaps we may learn more of their story via that organization.

Until then, I'd suggest backing off on the criticism. As has been said,, we were not there and know little about how it all played out.

Jim

Since they were outside the lagoon I don't know what running a cut has to do with their situation. But if I remember right, the cut that's just to the north of Hopetown is (or seemed narrow to me since my last time through there was pre-chartplotter days but I did have a GPS that told me my lat/long to plot on my paper chart) quite narrow with coral heads on either side, and I certainly wouldn't dream of attempting it in anything but settled conditions. Another problem is that even if you hit the cut dead on its centerline, in a rage there's so much water and strange currents surging through that narrow cut that even quite a large boat with a very skilled helmsman would get really pushed around and be lucky to make it through unscathed. As you say, laying off until dawn AND calmer conditions would be the thing to do, and even then, especially if I had no usable engine in a boat that doesn't go to weather very well so turning around wouldn't be an option, I think I'd wait until a boat with a working GPS came along and follow him closely through the cut. But, based on the info I've read so far about this incident, I don't think the cut or the rage had anything to do with this boat lying on a beach outside the lagoon. Most likely the reference to a reef was just the shallow coral areas a hundred yards or so to the east of the beach they ended up on.

Based on what we all know about this at this point, it just doesn't make sense so there must be more to it that we don't yet know. Hopefully we'll eventually learn what happened that led to this boat being on the beach. At least everyone is still alive.

[Matt Johnson]

Just got back from speaking to the owner. Here is a basic summery of what happened:

Departure point - Puerto Rico.
Destination- St Augustine Fl.

Somewhere South East of the Bahamas they ran into a storm and were getting pushed West towards the Abacos. Not being able to clear the islands, they spent two days trying to claw off the leeshore before eventually running out of sea room.

He had paper charts and marked his position along the way, but once he lost power, was forced to use dead reckoning for days in storm conditions with no new position. Engine had died a few days before (never got a reason for this). The Cape Horn Windvane broke and he was forced to hand steer around the same time as engine failure (4 days before).

He could see the light house coming into Hope town and made it through to the Northern part of the island (he said inside the reef and around the tip?) where he tried anchoring until daylight to make it the rest of the way around. With the wind and waves still high and little protection, the anchor rode parted and they were swept around the east side of the island between the reef and the beach. In this area, there are tons of coral heads not shown on the charts between the beach and the outer reef.... he said he hit most of the them before landing on the beach.

The lines in the water and around the prop were from them trying to catch a coral head to stop from running on the beach. The engine wasn't working at this time, so no idea how they got around the prop.

This is just a synopsis of what he told us.

Matt

[Matt Johnson]

I forgot to add that he is in good spirits and being well taken care of by the Bahamians. He couldn't say enough good things about how the community has come together to help him (local not cruisers).

Also, apparently he has made this trip multiple times before.

Matt

[Jim Cate]

Matt, thanks for that information. Sure helps visualize the situation. Sounds like the trip from hell, too... whether ill advised or not!

But it shows how wrong folks are who say that windward sailing ability isn't important to a cruising sailor.

Jim

[AJ_n_Audrey]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Maybe I'm missing something but.. it does not look like they went through the reef.. looking at the pic's in Gords link there's a whole lot of empty horizon out there in the broadside on shot.. like ocean empty.
More than one assumption going on.. especially with someone local stating that sea's are raising a dune on the seaward side of the beached boat. inside the reef.????

I have stood on that beach, and there are a lot of coral heads in that water going out about half a mile. Trust me, it's a reef, and so say the people who are there, like the couple on Motu Iti.