Aground at Elbow Cay

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

what if you stop for a moment and think about this ....

monohulls are just no safe as much as you like to believe.

get it thru your head and stay alive.

thank me later.

Are you saying that a multi hull would have somehow come through this experience better than they did? If so, please explain how this would have worked out. Then, and only if you make sense, I might thank you.

And so far I've stayed alive in a variety of monohulled yachts.

Jim

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Are you saying that a multi hull would have somehow come through this experience better than they did? If so, please explain how this would have worked out. Then, and only if you make sense, I might thank you.

And so far I've stayed alive in a variety of monohulled yachts.

Jim

no this was not multihull pinch. All I am saying is that boats are not safe at any point in time and permanent paranoia is good way to make them and yourself safer.

In this blog, see tendency that people blame everything else and not boat, or just this particular brand that is crap, etc. that is not good.

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by rognvald

I don't see why there's such a lack of civility for the constructive criticism offered by earl grey. Perhaps, he could have proffered his opinions in in a more genteel way but, none the less, isn't this a Forum of discussion for people to weigh in on topics concerning sailing and navigation? Must we abide by some unwritten rules of discourse known only to a select few? What was it that he said that did not make good sea sense irrespective of, perhaps, not knowing all the details? Do we need a police report before any critique can be levered? Is his honesty and contrary opinion the grounds for placing him on your ignore list? Was it because he only has a few posts that he suffered this attack? This is why, in my opinion, many have left this Forum since there is a decided clique of respondents who peck the proverbial wounded chicken, in unison, if he/she does not agree with THE GROUP'S VIEWS. How can this in any way be fair or civil? Jim Cate offered the same response I would have chosen by gaining sea room and staying well off a lee shore under compromised conditions rather than attempting a dangerous reef passage at night. Why was he not castigated for his proper criticism? Did Jim know all the facts? No, but he offered, in my opinion, along with earl grey, the best solutions to avoiding the tragic end. The bottom line is simple and is best expressed through Physics: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Good luck and safe sailing . . . Rognvald

Well said.
Fwiw I personally thought earl grey was also trying to make the point that to set off in the first place with the issues the boat had, gave him little wiggle room when problems arose... A stitch in time saves nine.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

what if you stop for a moment and think about this ....

monohulls are just no safe as much as you like to believe.

get it thru your head and stay alive.

thank me later.

Arse, thank you so much for this absolute pearl of wisdom, I shall forthwith give up sailing my monohull and move on to the armchair!!

[Exile]

Originally Posted by rognvald

I don't see why there's such a lack of civility for the constructive criticism offered by earl grey. Perhaps, he could have proffered his opinions in in a more genteel way but, none the less, isn't this a Forum of discussion for people to weigh in on topics concerning sailing and navigation? Must we abide by some unwritten rules of discourse known only to a select few? What was it that he said that did not make good sea sense irrespective of, perhaps, not knowing all the details? Do we need a police report before any critique can be levered? Is his honesty and contrary opinion the grounds for placing him on your ignore list? Was it because he only has a few posts that he suffered this attack? This is why, in my opinion, many have left this Forum since there is a decided clique of respondents who peck the proverbial wounded chicken, in unison, if he/she does not agree with THE GROUP'S VIEWS. How can this in any way be fair or civil? Jim Cate offered the same response I would have chosen by gaining sea room and staying well off a lee shore under compromised conditions rather than attempting a dangerous reef passage at night. Why was he not castigated for his proper criticism? Did Jim know all the facts? No, but he offered, in my opinion, along with earl grey, the best solutions to avoiding the tragic end. The bottom line is simple and is best expressed through Physics: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Good luck and safe sailing . . . Rognvald

It was actually my impression that it was the crew of the distressed yacht that was being unfairly pecked at in the absence of sufficiently known facts, an occurrence which also seems to happen quite often on this forum. Since we now know that this crew apparently did in fact have paper charts onboard, did in fact utilize DR skills during difficult conditions, and did in fact attempt to claw their way off a dangerous lee shore for two days, couldn't we also just as easily assume they did a helluva job -- in the absence of electronic navigation no less -- of making it through those reefs in the dark and getting the boat safely onto the beach in such rough conditions?

Hey, if we're making all these assumptions . . . why not?

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Exile

It was actually my impression that it was the crew of the distressed yacht that was being unfairly pecked at in the absence of sufficiently known facts, an occurrence which also seems to happen quite often on this forum. Since we now know that this crew apparently did in fact have paper charts onboard, did in fact utilize DR skills during difficult conditions, and did in fact attempt to claw their way off a dangerous lee shore for two days, couldn't we also just as easily assume they did a helluva job -- in the absence of electronic navigation no less -- of making it through those reefs in the dark and getting the boat safely onto the beach in such rough conditions?

Hey, if we're making all these assumptions . . . why not?

You could assume. But that of course goes aganist your first sentence and that of course is what forum people are most interested in.

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by Exile

It was actually my impression that it was the crew of the distressed yacht that was being unfairly pecked at in the absence of sufficiently known facts, an occurrence which also seems to happen quite often on this forum. Since we now know that this crew apparently did in fact have paper charts onboard, did in fact utilize DR skills during difficult conditions, and did in fact attempt to claw their way off a dangerous lee shore for two days, couldn't we also just as easily assume they did a helluva job -- in the absence of electronic navigation no less -- of making it through those reefs in the dark and getting the boat safely onto the beach in such rough conditions?

Hey, if we're making all these assumptions . . . why not?

Exile,
If they left PR in a seaworthy yacht and encountered difficult conditions, why would they have to claw off a lee shore if they allowed proper sea room when approaching the islands unless they were intending to ditch/scuttle the boat? I would refer you , once again, to earl grey's and Jim Cate's comments for a sensible critique of the situation. In my own experience, I have never attempted, day or night, to enter a harbor or pass/cut if conditions were not tenable and preferred to sail on until the sea moderated or I found an alternative solution. Some people always blame the boat, electronics, etc., when it is questionable/poor seamanship that is at fault. My sincerest condolences to the people who lost their boat. It is a tragedy of the highest sort for those who love the sea. Good luck and safe sailing . . .Rognvald

[Tingum]

Wow, I've been following this since the Bolo went out. A lot of comments from armchair sailors and a few differing opinions from some very experienced folks. Anyone been watching the weather close? The problem started by the crew trying to move a damaged boat at the absolute wrong time of year! Even though the Westsail is an extremely seaworthy boat, this one was wounded! They started out on what turned into the storm that blasted the East coast. That was followed by a series of major cold fronts, one after the other. I live in Abaco and had not seen the sun for over two weeks. We had many days and nights of 50+winds with torrential rains. 18" over the time span. The east coast of Elbow Cay, is as treacherous a lee shore as any in the Northern Hemisphere. Depths shoot up from thousands of meters to exposed reef in less than a mile. Ridges that cause the wave patterns to stand up jut many miles off shore. Throw in the Antellies current against the marching cold fronts and you have a maelstrom that few on the forum have ever experienced. The crew is lucky to be alive. They were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[boatman61]

True.. their passage planning from Puerto Rico sucked that's for sure.. especially in a dubious boat..

[Exile]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

You could assume. But that of course goes aganist your first sentence and that of course is what forum people are most interested in.

As usual, you speak the truth on both of your points. Notwithstanding other dubious decisions in making the passage when they did, making the assumption that the calamity was due to the absence of non-electronic navigation tools & skills was an unfounded assumption that apparently had nothing to do with why they wound up beached.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by rognvald

Exile,
If they left PR in a seaworthy yacht and encountered difficult conditions, why would they have to claw off a lee shore if they allowed proper sea room when approaching the islands unless they were intending to ditch/scuttle the boat? I would refer you , once again, to earl grey's and Jim Cate's comments for a sensible critique of the situation. In my own experience, I have never attempted, day or night, to enter a harbor or pass/cut if conditions were not tenable and preferred to sail on until the sea moderated or I found an alternative solution. Some people always blame the boat, electronics, etc., when it is questionable/poor seamanship that is at fault. My sincerest condolences to the people who lost their boat. It is a tragedy of the highest sort for those who love the sea. Good luck and safe sailing . . .Rognvald

I agree with all of this, rognvald, with the exception of your prior post claiming that earlgrey was treated unfairly. In hindsight it looks pretty obvious that this crew's problems started with a chain of events that began with their decision to depart PR when they did in a vessel that may not have been fit for the passage. But this has nothing to do with the assumptions eg made about the immediate cause of the grounding, and apparently nothing to do with his & Jim Cate's otherwise well-founded advice about lee shores.

I just cringe a bit when I see the often unwarranted piling on that seems to happen around here when threads pop up about fellow sailors suffering tragedies, although I do recognize the value at times from learning from others' mistakes. But as sailorboy just alluded to, do posters really rush to judgement on these incidents for their educational value or just to see a good car crash?

[goat]

Yup, meant to do that. Careened the boat to scrub the bottom. Nothing else to see here, move along.

That's what I usually say....err, I mean, would say, if this happened to me.

goat

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Exile

I agree with all of this, rognvald, with the exception of your prior post claiming that earlgrey was treated unfairly. In hindsight it looks pretty obvious that this crew's problems started with a chain of events that began with their decision to depart PR when they did in a vessel that may not have been fit for the passage. But this has nothing to do with the assumptions eg made about the immediate cause of the grounding, and apparently nothing to do with his & Jim Cate's otherwise well-founded advice about lee shores.

I just cringe a bit when I see the often unwarranted piling on that seems to happen around here when threads pop up about fellow sailors suffering tragedies, although I do recognize the value at times from learning from others' mistakes. But as sailorboy just alluded to, do posters really rush to judgement on these incidents for their educational value or just to see a good car crash?

You missed one. Touting what they believe to be their own proficiency or expound on their licenses.

[Southern Star]

It seems to me that the following incorrect criticisms have been levelled at these unfortunate fellow cruisers based upon pure speculation:

1.They should have had paper charts in case their electronics failed. Turns out they did.
2. They should have usd DR once the electronics failed. Again, turns out they did.
3. They should have left sufficient sea room/stayed offshore overnight until things settled down. It turns out that they attempted to claw off shore for a few days. If three days sea room is always insufficient, what is enough?
4. They made a poor choice comcerning their departure window. Actually, the weather when they left Puerto Rico was (and was forecast to be) generally very benign for several days, even in the Turks and Caicos and the Abacos. How far in advance do you rely upon forecasts? Keep in mind that in the last few days, Chris Parker has noted how this year the various forecast models are failing to coincide in a dramatic way.
5. They chose the wrong boat i.e., Westsails are not very good to windward. This one may be true, but they are sturdy boats that have circumnavigated countless times and are available to those, including I expect these fellow cruisers, who do not have the financial means to afford more. Maybe that was their biggest mistake - they didn’t have enough money to afford a better boat with better gear, communications equipment and more redundancy.

Brad

[boatman61]

So.. in your considered opinions travelling North along the East of the Bahama's Bank is a good plan this time of year.???