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Old 28-03-2013, 16:57   #106
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

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TAC TIC!
Forgive my ignorance.

How is the sending unit powered? It has to have power from somewhere/something to send a signal no?
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Old 28-03-2013, 17:10   #107
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Tablets will destroy Garmin Raymarine etc. Its a matter of time. We will have wireless sensors feeding info to the waterproof tablet devices. Even engine data. Everything will be controlled and or monitored on tablet devices.
" undersea by rail ,new York to Paris.........."

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Old 28-03-2013, 17:33   #108
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

I use iNavX on an iPad mini as primary navigation.

The screen on an iPad mini does not respond to fingers in a blueglove.

The battery is the weak point in the scenario. A full charge, recording a track at reduced brightness gives about 10 hours of battery life. Recharging can be slow off a twelve volt system. Very slow.

So far, daysailing and overnight sailing within Puget Sound, those are the only two limitations I have found.
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Old 28-03-2013, 17:37   #109
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

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Try talking to a teenager.....it is just as bad....maybe worse.
Explain that no, you don't want sex, you need to drive slower, "dude", as a word, only fits at one point in a given sentence and "Goth" makes you look, well, silly.

My advice is to break it into four separate discussions over a period of three weeks.
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Old 28-03-2013, 17:57   #110
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There's is a lot of wishful thinking here and coupled with many inaccuracies and " glossing over details "

Let me state I have a professional interest , I am a registered Apple iOS developer. I have a 30 year design background in industrial automation , including CANBUS , tcp/ip , Ethernet, gsm and other comms etc

NMEA 2k is based directly on CANBUS 2.0 and the higher protocol is essentially J1939. The cable /connector is from Device Net and is readily available. Little is actually proprietary or even specific to N2k , for about 700 dollars you can get the pgn directory for example. It remains significantly cheaper to integrate canbus into silicon and the overhead suits low cost microcontrollers at the current state of the art.

NMEA 2k is an open standard, but its not free. Just like ZigBee , Wifi , USB etc and 100s of standards used today that have licensing built into them.( and expensive certification, have you seen what Bluetooth certification costs )

There is no current standard for NMEA 2k to Tcp/ip interconnection. There are some proprietary implementations. There are also issues with data from tcp/ip being injected back onto NMEA 2k , ( including lack of adaquate source quenching )

NMEA 2k is a dedicated control bus hence its has specific capabilities in that regard including auto address setup. ( that still requires an additional subsystem in tcp/ip ). NMEA can have throttle systems , engine control , autopilots etc you want tcp/ip into that , no thanks ( anyone remember MAP 3.0 !!)

For example the NMEA 2k PGNs that allow a autopilot head control the autopilot computer ate proprietary, unless the big four open up such protocols , them they will remain closed no amount of tablet 'integration ' will solve it . Equally the big four produce radars etc. again there is no push to open standards here and nothing will change here fast either

Opencpn can feed route data to autopilots. It cant control them

Would you seriously rely on a tablet GPS to feed your nav system with GPS to several key devices I wouldn't.

Equally all manufacturers systems look more and "tablet" like anyway. You have control music , watch videos, access the Internet , etc with the current generation MFDs. At a certain point all the display systems will probably do much of the same

Touchscreens are not and will never be the ultimate input device, there will always be a niche for buttons , knobs and the like.

As regards STW and SOG , other then for certain racers and precise trimmers, SOG can replace STW in almost all cases. Most of the time the effect of a current is less then a knot , often its well below the accuracy of a paddle wheel , sailors always rabbit on about STW , but I'd guarantee, if I reprogrammed your true wind display with SOG you probably never notice. As for the Gulf Stream SOG will quite happily tell you When you're in it.

SOG from ordinary gps has to highly damped to handle GPS errors which can be quite pronounced , what with DOP issues and atmospherics etc hence it and its cousin COG do have issues of use in certain situations


As for 1hz versus 10hz. If the autopilot has a fast processor it might be able to use high speed heading data , however most can't. Similarly 10hz heading is very useful to stabilise a MARPA display on a small boat. Even if few MFDs have the horsepower to use it so. Of course 10hz from a high quality satellite compass is better then any flux compass, with pr without gyros.

So absolutely, technically all this tablet centric integration could be done , or course it can

Will it be done , well that remains to be seen , I'm more interested in post -tablet device , like Google glass, I mean tablets are so 20th century ( I was programming a tablet in 2000) currently we are in the middle of a App fest , but that can change to the " next " great thing

Dave
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Old 28-03-2013, 18:02   #111
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

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Forgive my ignorance.

How is the sending unit powered? It has to have power from somewhere/something to send a signal no?
I think Raymarine has there wireless devices powered by solar.
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Old 28-03-2013, 18:40   #112
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Sorry if someone has already suggested this but I just came across this thread and I currently don't have the time to read through the whole thing. Did allot of research about 4 months ago on this very topic. That being said, I use a PanTech Element tablet. It's water proof to one meter, easily updated to android ice cream sandwich o/s (Free), has a long battery life ( Almost as long an iPad), expandable memory up 32 gigs on sdmicro, which you can actually install to & run apps from, it has 4G LTE built in, with blue tooth, wifi, forward/back facing cameras with flash & active GPS, which works without a wifi or cell connection. Besides doubling as my ereader, & news arrogator I run the follow apps: MXMariner (chart plotter), GPS Essentials (Lat., Lon., SOG, etc.) Navticharts (Active Capt. Lite Points of interest) and Marine Traffic (Commercial Traffic app). I'm cheap so I don't have a cell service contract but I use the MagicJack dialer app & account ($15 a year) to make phone calls via wifi when available. Good luck on your endeavor.
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Old 28-03-2013, 19:20   #113
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

Pantech Element Water Proof Tablet Review. Thanks Youtube!
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Old 28-03-2013, 20:48   #114
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

Now I want one!
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Old 28-03-2013, 21:00   #115
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

Dave (goboatingnow) - thanks for your perspective.

I agree with everything you've said, except for "NMEA 2k is an open standard"

Um, no. If the protocol details aren't public, and it's deliberately obfuscated, it ain't open. ZigBee , Wifi , USB are conduits and there's ample data and frameworks available for any dev to utilize those devices, commercially, without added cost. NMEA 2K is both a conduit and a common language except you have to pay $700 to learn the language, and a whole lot more to market hardware that understands the language.

All these tablet kludges, or adoption of a superior, genuinely open standard, are going to make NMEA irrelevant in short order if they don't smarten up. But this is a digression.
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Old 29-03-2013, 02:40   #116
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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect
Dave (goboatingnow) - thanks for your perspective.

I agree with everything you've said, except for "NMEA 2k is an open standard"



All these tablet kludges, or adoption of a superior, genuinely open standard, are going to make NMEA irrelevant in short order if they don't smarten up. But this is a digression.
Sorry. But who could be bothered to develop standards interchanging marine data . Certainly no mainstream IT firm will be bothered. So unless you can convince the radar , AIS , wind, depth etc companies to invent another one ( and funnily, lots of these make MFDs ) your arnt going to get anyone interested.

NMEA 2k may have its drawbacks. But it's what we have , it works and you can actually buy stuff that connects to it. That's good enough for most people.

Certification is a good thing , especially for a bus that's used to control real pieces of hardware.

Simply comparing say Linux to marine systems. Is to completely miss the point.

In summary

1. Whose going to bother inventing " superior open standard "

2. Why would existing suppliers of marine transducers bother implementing it

3. What's there today works.

4. It is an Open standard. Its just not free. ( have a look at costs associated with USB IDs for example. ( or ZigBee, or any other established industrial network protocol )

I'm all in favour of Open systems , but to suggest or " wishing " that some Torvald like character or we'll see "Google Marine " is ridiculous

A more apt comparison is the " home Automation" market , potentially far greater size then boats. How's the open standards coming along there then !!!!


ZigBee etc is just like nmea2k as is J1939 and just about as niche . Costs are similar. The difference is other major IT coms subsystems is that you can buy pre packaged modules where the licensing is integrated. ( because of the huge market size ) equally you can buy a nmea2k licensed and certified gateway interface for a couple of Bob today if you want to play with it.

What you can't do is convince any major autopilot company (For example) to release the PGNs to control that autopilot computer ( to the level of its control head ) and there are good and relevant technical and safety reasons why they will never do so. ( no more then you can't get the PGNs for your engine control computer on your car either )

Closed systems work well together , ask Apple ,billions of dollars can't be wrong either

Dave

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Old 29-03-2013, 05:11   #117
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

I agree with what the topic says; A Tablet to replace it all...

We use an Ipad with Navionics as our primary navigational instrument. We made close to 2000 miles last season in the Aegean/Med, with my wife and two 10 year ols kids on board.

We have a chartplotter down in the cabin, paper maps of course, two handheld gps one as back up and one as the back up of the back up, a laptop with open cpn.

Never needed those. The maps are accurate, (actually they are the same maps used in other well known chartplotters) the users can contribute to the maps with whatever information they find necessary, including thier own soundings, where to anchor or where to eat etc. The weather prediction, tide informations, sun and moon timings are also accurate. We tracked our whole sailing last season and yes it can be used as a video camera or for snapshots, where the program saves and puts the video/photo on your track. All you have to do is to export your track to facebook or your blog or to google earth where the tracks/photos and videos are still visible.

We never needed anything else.

Well, actually we did not have the waterproof case and was using the Ipad on the steering pedestal as it is. So of course the first Ipad went overboard during a squall. Then we needed the second one...

This is how we use it now. The waterproof case is really waterproof and costs something like 20-30 usd in Westmarine/Marmaris/Turkey. And I don't see any circumstances where I have to be in such a hurry that I can not dry my wet/oily hands or take my gloves off to touch the screen.

Also same goes for the visibility issues. It is visible in daytime/sunlight/dark well sometimes we are forced to move our neck a bit but hey; this is the sea right.

Cheers

S/Y CANKIZ
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Old 29-03-2013, 06:08   #118
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Windows 8 convertible tablets/laptops. I'm currently using a Samsung ATIV 700 and it's one heck of a machine. Not ruggedized, but it certainly can "replace it all" with regard to other tablets and computers. I use it down belowdecks, running Coastal Explorer (interfaced to NMEA via USB) with the CP at the cockpit. It would be pretty easy to upgrade the NMEA interface to Bluetooth but I don't see the need in my particular situation.

The limitations of iOs and Android tablets (for now) are such that they can't do everything full computers can do. Windows 8 is much more versatile and and powerful, plus you have USB and external device support for the whole world of computer peripherals.
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Old 29-03-2013, 06:19   #119
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

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...............
What you can't do is convince any major autopilot company (For example) to release the PGNs to control that autopilot computer ( to the level of its control head )................

Dave
No, you can't convince them, but the PGNs are there on YOUR network and can be seen ("Sniffed"). Then they can be reverse engineered similar to the way the OpnCpn developers have reverse engineered the Garmin Ethernet RADAR protocol and others have done the BR24 RADAR.

Many of the PGNs have already been documented. See:https://github.com/canboat/canboat

I think the main thing standing in the way of this is that the CAN bus hardware is not as widely available as Ethernet.

I hope this work will continue.
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Old 29-03-2013, 06:22   #120
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

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No, you can't convince them, but the PGNs are there on YOUR network and can be seen ("Sniffed"). Then they can be reverse engineered similar to the way the OpnCpn developers have reverse engineered the Garmin Ethernet RADAR protocol and others have done the BR24 RADAR.

Many of the PGNs have already been documented. See:https://github.com/canboat/canboat

I hope this work will continue.
Thats all fine for Tech geeks, its not useful in moving the debate forward. It in effect proves nothing

Unless you have a manufacturer supported open system. nothing can be really agained through reverse engineering. its fine for the likes of (you and me) but its not a solution to opening up the "market" ( everytime I hear that word , I see Merrkats!!)

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