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Old 26-03-2013, 22:23   #76
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The "market" for marine electronics is estimated at under 1 billion dollars worldwide ( see Panbo) , thats less the 1/10 of teh annual sales of the iPad alone. SO well see just what "market" forces are at play here in reality.

Just like laptops were going to remove dedicated MFDs a few years ago, howd that work out then

Not to mention the manufacturers have to recoup all that investment in dedicated expensive radars, AIS ,smart transducers etc, they have no real interest in "open systems" , if they dont build open radars, just where will your niche get them from

Boaters arnt IT , they want to buy a system, plug it togethe,r and go sailing, many people just use the systems that come with the new boat as is.

Integrated tablet software for plotting, radar ais is still a long way off, becuase teh standards rant there for data transfer and NMEA is under a lot of pressure to control "third party gateways" ( see Chetco for that story etc)

Young people are not active in cruising/sailing, its an aging sport , Young people today are likely to have less disposable income then their parents, no household equity to release and a tougher loans market.

Tablets on boats will be just like Laptops on boats , a niche "nerdy" type solution for people that like alternative "roll your own" solutions.

Today you can buy quite capable integrated plotters for under 1000 dollars and some under 600 dollars, all with NMEA2k interconnectivity, waterproof to IPx7 and sunlight readable screens, Wheres the advantage in using a cheap, soon to be "throwaway" consumer tablet, with cheap 2-3 year life electronics and dubious reliability.

The rest is "wishful" thinking


Dave
Not sure about this Dave!

Personally we are moving more and more into our iPad ... not for it's 'Nerdy' features or anything but rather it is an easy to use, easy to scroll, zoom in and out straight forward very accurate affordable device which has not 'hung up' once!
More and more, I am meeting cruisers out here who ONLY have a laptop and Ipad for navigation ... other instruments are simple 'stand alone' devices!

I think the future is moving this way ... we certainly are
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Old 26-03-2013, 22:31   #77
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

Dumb question:

Every time i've gone chart-plotter browsing at shops and boat shows, the big ticket items was always the charts.

Sure, the devices are cheap enough; Simrad NSS7 $1,299.
But aren't the charts up in the thousands?

Or is that just another way we Aussie's get stung - having to but the charts separately. Like iTunes songs at $1.69 each.

This shop:
https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_i...tAbsolutePage=
talks about "embedded cartography" - what's that?
Sounds like marketing speak for a thin line showing the coast, and nothing else, like my hand-held Garmin shows.
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Old 26-03-2013, 23:44   #78
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
If SOG was all that anyone needed, do you think the cursed paddlewheels would still be standard on almost all boats that have any type of instrumentation?

Knowing the current (speed and direction) can also tell you which tack is favored, and that can tell you which one to favor for the best speed toward your goal.
Mostly a habit from the 'good old days' when it was merely the problem of estimating the SOG and COG with reasonable accuracy.. Now we have them in one single device with all the maps you couldn't never dream of having not to mention other usefull apps.
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Old 27-03-2013, 00:23   #79
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

YouTube
Cool!
Sony's water-resistant Xperia Tablet Z is thinner than iPad mini | DVICE
Killer!
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Old 27-03-2013, 05:24   #80
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Originally Posted by jacob30 View Post
This is a great option for making your iPad waterproof and shock proof. I. Own one and so far it's great. http://www.lifeproof.com/en/ipad/
Honestly.....unless you plan to swim with your tablet......an Otterbox or Gumdrop case will work just fine. I have been using a Gumdrop on my Asus for two years...no probs.

Edit: But I agree, this looks like a fine case unless you need badelf for gps.
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Old 27-03-2013, 08:42   #81
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

Norm-
You pay dearly for the charts because they are 'Crown' property and that's what they can get for them.
In the US our government charts are, like all government publications, property of the people. So everyone in the US amortizes the cost of them with our general tax funds including the farmers we pay not to grow soybeans. That makes better sense, right? Hmmmm....
Technically, under US copyright law, I think that means all the "foreigners" are not entitled to free US charts but we haven't figured out how to charge y'all for them yet. Yet.<G>

Dave-
IIRC 90% of that billion-dollar boating market also sails on boats smaller than 28' OAL, so their market for electronics is also proportionately smaller. If they average 24' OAL, you don't see many boats that size needing to do more than piloting or inshore sailing. Making the true market perhaps only $100 million in size?

Gelfling-
"Environmental Protection: The Defender Series Realtree camo iPad case provides added protection against bumps, drops and shock but is NOT protective against water" That's what Otterbox says. Gumdrop seems silent on the subject.
It isn't a matter of not bathing with them, but those cases may not hold up in a good splash, or a heavy storm. And as folks with Lifeproof cases have commented online, they're great until the ports leak.
If you've ever seen a classic Ikelite underwater camera case, they owned that industry single-handed for many decades, because durable waterproof seals are trickier than they appear to be. And there's only a small market for them. Adding them on just isn't the same as designing them in.
Beats nothing, sure. Keeps off light spray, sure. Better than nothing, again, sure!

On the bright side, Boost Mobile (a Sprint NVMO in the US) is selling a Kyocera phone for $99 now that is supposed to be waterproof. So at least someone in a mass market is, forgive the pun, testing the waters for selling waterproof products.
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Old 27-03-2013, 11:17   #82
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post

Dave-
IIRC 90% of that billion-dollar boating market also sails on boats smaller than 28' OAL, so their market for electronics is also proportionately smaller. If they average 24' OAL, you don't see many boats that size needing to do more than piloting or inshore sailing. Making the true market perhaps only $100 million in size?

Gelfling-
"Environmental Protection: The Defender Series Realtree camo iPad case provides added protection against bumps, drops and shock but is NOT protective against water" That's what Otterbox says. Gumdrop seems silent on the subject.
It isn't a matter of not bathing with them, but those cases may not hold up in a good splash, or a heavy storm. And as folks with Lifeproof cases have commented online, they're great until the ports leak.
If you've ever seen a classic Ikelite underwater camera case, they owned that industry single-handed for many decades, because durable waterproof seals are trickier than they appear to be. And there's only a small market for them. Adding them on just isn't the same as designing them in.
Beats nothing, sure. Keeps off light spray, sure. Better than nothing, again, sure!

On the bright side, Boost Mobile (a Sprint NVMO in the US) is selling a Kyocera phone for $99 now that is supposed to be waterproof. So at least someone in a mass market is, forgive the pun, testing the waters for selling waterproof products.
HS, I understand what you are saying.....but like you said about the 90%-ers, it will work fine. Those of us that are in 'smaller boats' don't seek out (actually we run like hell from) the big storms anyway. My gumdrop has 'taken a splash' and held up fine...though I do not expect it to hold up if it is submerged. If I did get caught up in a storm and it did get submerged (hard to do mounted to the pedestal) then I have my cell phone as back up (in a zip lock baggy, inside pocket of my rain gear or cargos.) to get me a fix so I can use a chart (even though it will work as a plotter). But then that puts us into the 'more than one' category. And I will have to admit, I also have a cheapo Garmin chartplotter as well....you know...just in case-case.
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Old 27-03-2013, 11:28   #83
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

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I understand all of the above. Maybe what I meant to ask was for the person who was advocating against the need for a through hull for STW measurement how HE copes without this basic metric. at the low speeds a sailing vessel moves at, even small jumps in position could generate erroneous speed measurements. Now not being a sailor, can a sailboats speed change drastically over a small timeframe? compounded with these small computational errors can this lead to erroneous instantaneous decisions based on inaccurate speed measurements? I never assumed that they did. However down there in that bedeviled fine print is there a requirement for certain standards? Training appropriate to circumstance? Technology when fitted, is fit for purpose? etc etc... we all know that insurance companies hate to pay out.... Just because they don't ask.
This is not true. Yes every gadget is susceptible to failure. However failure of the ONE gadget that does everything results in a 100% failure of systems, whereas the failure of one gadget in an array might only slightly downgrade performance....

Yet my experience of flying (which is just as visceral) led me to believe that flight sim can teach you IMC flight quite proficiently. To the point that at the end of my first lesson, my instructor allowed me to take off. ascend ,turn, complete a circuit, approach and landing while in full control of the aircraft..... So why not a sailing simulator? All of the non visual cues can be interpreted to a visual system, and all of the visual cues could easily be displayed... Modern software physics engines should be well capable of emulating the experience....

Driving games are not true simulators of driving, in that they don't lend themselves to emulate the true relationship between driver, clutch and engine that is required to drive stick....
You do not care about the accuracy of instantaneous SOG data. A high degree of accuracy in this data is useless. Accurate SOG over some period of time is of course useful (average speed made good over an hour especially), but this averages out. In any case, good instruments use sophisticated algorithms to average out individual position fixes to calculate SOG. The frequency of update is only one small part of that equation so you should not get hung up on that.

What is extremely valuable on a sailing boat is accurate instantaneous STW data. This is the only way to know the effect of small sail trim changes. You sail in water, not over ground, so you really care about STW in all of its forms. Unfortunately STW is difficult to measure accurately, much more difficult than SOG. Traditional paddlewheel transducers are inherently inaccurate, prone to fouling, and are hard to calibrate.

I will repeat what others have said earlier in the thread: SOG is no substitute for STW.

I have just invested in an ultrasonic log, an Airmar CS4500. This is a rather expensive bit of kit, but I have just replaced all of my electronics and made this little indulgence. It is resistant to fouling and is supposed to be highly accurate -- we shall see. I have B&G Zeus MFD's which together with a precise heading sensor will calculate precise current information -- if given accurate enough STW data. Try that on an IPad! Accurate STW is also essential for a valid True Wind calculation.
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Old 27-03-2013, 11:38   #84
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

Dockhead-
"I have just invested in an ultrasonic log, an Airmar CS4500."
You buy all the good toys. But is it CE approved for installation on your boat? <VBG>

Gelfling-
I'm thinking of one day when the weatherman said "sunny, five knots" and we started a race in one of those 90%ers, with 40 knot winds and eight foot seas. Needless to say, no electronics were allowed on deck. Navigation was by the binnacle compass and "that-a-way".
Sometimes...that's enough.
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Old 27-03-2013, 12:06   #85
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

HS -
I agree. On my 28'er in the Chessy, sometimes all I need is a 15-20 kt wind blowing against the tide to put me in 'that-a-way' mode! Those that have sailed the Chessy understand the 'Chesapeake Chop'
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Old 27-03-2013, 14:36   #86
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

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Dockhead-
"I have just invested in an ultrasonic log, an Airmar CS4500."
You buy all the good toys. But is it CE approved for installation on your boat? <VBG>
LOL. I'm just amazed that I was not stopped at Heathrow with a huge suitcase full of marine electronics . . .

I think I got away with it, actually . . .
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Old 27-03-2013, 15:21   #87
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

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It is a matter of time. Maybe the circumnavigators will continue to use the marine devices BUT the coastal cruiser sailors and motor boaters will end up using some sort of tablet. Guys this is like the music or movies technology. If companies like Garmin or Raymarine etc dont jump in they will be GONE. Just like Blockbuster. This is it the future is here in the next five years there will be a major transformation in the way coastal navigation is done. All instrumentation will be wireless and will feed data to either a receiver with bluetooth or something better. Hundreds of apps will be available at affordable prices. The era of the "marine" gadgets and overpriced instruments is almost gone. Just sit and watch it explode all over the world. Aftermarket devices such as waterproof covers and lenses are here or around the corner.
I just wonder what is going to power all those "wireless" things transmitting over the bluetooth.
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Old 27-03-2013, 15:29   #88
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

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I know my hull speed. I sailed my boat before in a variety of conditions. I don't see what exactly I'm going to learn by realizing that I go 5 knots SOW, and 3 SOG.
.
What if a person buys a boat and it has no speed log?

It could be a very long time indeed before it was used in a variety of of conditions with the knowledge that there is no current to influence what one is "learning".
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Old 27-03-2013, 15:37   #89
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

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looks good.
The first is like 1200 bucks though
And the second - Sony will be selling the Xperia Tablet Z in black and white, but it hasn't yet announced any specific details on pricing or availability.

And are they still waterproof if something is plugged into them?

I like the idea of that kind of thing but still think it is mainly for the cabin. Maybe not for long though.
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Old 27-03-2013, 15:48   #90
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

dockhead: I think that was my point!

Hellosailor: I think you'll find that the move from four engines to two had more to do with the reliability of turbine versus turboprop technology, and the increases in that reliability led to the implementation of twin engine ETOPS reguations, which govern the time distance from a valid airport a twin engine operator is allowed to plan routes.

Decca: I have been in many hi-stress environments were instantaneous decision making is vital, and in that environment accurate and current, relevant data (and by relevant I mean relevant to the decision I was making at the time) is vital.

I teach extreme whitewater kayaking, and I tell people when I'm teaching safety that If they approach me to give me a piece of information that it has to be accurate, quick and relevant, if it takes more than 5 seconds to deliver the information then I can no longer do anything about it (for the purposes of time critical decision making, and to train people to think that way as a standard in the sport).

Similarly, I can imagine situations in sailing where knowing the SOG might be useful but not critical, whereas instantaneous STW information might be critical to a decision. Okay now maybe not for your 90% average under 28ft day sailors.

But here you are discussing moving to a new standard for marine technology, and it seems to me that standards only change when moving to one of three things, more accuracy, easier or faster use, greater rliability, with easier orfaster use being completely dependent on no decrease in accuracy. While I definitely see how the Ipad system will be easier to use , I can't see it becoming "standard" until it becomes as accurate or more accurate than the technology it replaces.

I don't see how an ipad can be a better solution for marine systems, where accurate analog measurement of the real time environmental data is critical to safety. How does an Ipad replace a weather radar system for example? a depth sounder? a speed transducer? your radio? maybe it can replace the displays for these units, but the display is probably the cheapest part of the system to begin with....

STW seems to me, a critical piece of information, and I don't see how an independent Ipad system without hull speed sensor can ever replicate that data.

Consider decimal versus imperial measurement (and by decimal I mean base 10 math, versus base 8, 12, or 16). There is no variation in accuracy, but substantial increases in efficiency to be made in using decimal processes, thence why decimal replaced imperial as the standard in math (and why everybody now thinks in base 10).

my $.02
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