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Old 26-03-2013, 11:23   #61
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

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You understand why some people prefer to buy a Mercedes instead of a Lada? Okay, just refine that concept a bit more.
I respect any opinion and please let's not drift further with our preferences. I've been using IBM servers since dual Slot 1 Pentium platform, always had support for at least 5-6 Linux distros, official. Not to mention that you can buy support from any Linux provider, that's where their money comes and they have to be good. For me, refining that a bit more would result in Linux being a space shuttle.
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Old 26-03-2013, 11:40   #62
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

Sorry, I tried, but couldn't help myself!

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*nix has been threatening to take over the world for 40? 50? years now and it still hasn't quite happened.
It has, we just don't know it

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I hope you mean REAR CASE because fiberglass over the front, over the screen, might make it difficult to use the tablet.
No, I meant the front, around the screen... as easy as can get...
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Old 26-03-2013, 12:05   #63
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

"What would cost to mass produce it, 40 cents?"
There is no mass market for boat plotters, never has been. If you rounded up all the boat owners in the world, they still wouldn't add up to one mass market, even if you convinced them all to buy the same thing.
And Apple has never pursued the mass market, they pursue an elite. In case you aren't aware, a large percent of the iPhone owners have an income over $100,000 in the US. They are not the mass market. Apple is simply following marketing and profit rules that have been known for a long time: You can make a lot more money from a small premium market, than from selling 100x more on the mass market. That's not my opinion, places like the Harvard Business School have documented it.

I'm still not understanding how you plan to put a fiberglass mold OVER THE FRONT of an ipad with totally obstructing it. Perhaps you mean AROUND the front, as a bezel that would attach it to the bulkhead? (Velcro can do that.)
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Old 26-03-2013, 12:27   #64
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

Could be in US but since the first iPhone, on every new version I was offered one at a special price of 100 Euros by Orange. My Eeepc came the same way. Here is usual to see iPhones in hands of long legged creatures living on $500/month tops. And I think 3/4 of the people I know own an iPhone. That is MASS.. Still, by mass production I meant a number that would justify the price of a plastic injection mold.

As I said, around the screen, exactly as the front part (bezel?) of that case, check the link a few posts back
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Old 26-03-2013, 14:44   #65
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

humble opinion from sailing wannabe....

firstly SOG v SOW: I can't rationally understand (and maybe you could explain it to me?) how SOG can in any way provide anything but navigation data. SOW seems to be an intrinsic metric for all boat handling decisions. SOG can't tell the difference between 3kts headway into 3kts current vs 5kts headway to 5kts current. If your boat has a 5kt max hull speed you are going to come to a different decision on what to do next in these two circumstances. Similarly, your sog reads 6kts, with a following wind and current, yet you SOG won't tell you that you've a 5kt current pushing you and you're barely making steerage.... and their will be plenty of situations where observable data may not be that reliable, night, inclement weather etc.... as a landlubber maybe someone can advise me how the loss of this simple piece of raw data can be derived from SOG.

Can someone please explain how a gps chip rated for 10m accuracy can provide true SOG consistently? surely some compensation is designed into the system? so two separate position calculations 8m apart doesnt provide an inaccurate assessment of speed?

Secondly, insurance: I don't know if many people cruising take out insurance? how is that insurance affected by the use of non marine rated tech in what is I presume categorized as a hazardous pursuit? will that Ipad void your insurance cover?

Thirdly, that one gadget syndrome: I love a good gadget. However, all commercial nav spec instrumentention hints at the fact safety is derived from having all your systems independent of each other. Completely separate systems to derive, speed, location, direction, depth etc, and completely separate modular systems to display such data so that the loss of one system doesn't render you completely useless. A modern glass cockpit in light aircraft seems to bely this fact however everybody still builds redundancy into their systems, independent displays, backup displays for essential data etc etc.

The eXtended version of murphys law seems quite appropriate here. "Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong, usually at the worst possible time and place."

Consider how in 2009, AF447 lost one vital metric, true airspeed, and this led the computer software and cabin crew making a whole boatload of erroneous decisions which led to the horrendous demise of the flight and all souls. Just as modern flight is heading the Ipad way, over-dependance on consolidated hardware allows inexperienced people to feel more comfortable in more greater conditions....

I am a flight sim enthusiast. went through the microsoft flight sim tutorials and became fully comfortable with that platform. Then went for my first flying lesson. about ten minutes in the instructor pulled out a sheet of A4 paper and stuck it over all the instruments and told me to fly the airplane. A moment before I was fully comfortable. Then I was lost. Completely.

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Old 26-03-2013, 15:43   #66
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

Allio-
"as a landlubber maybe someone can advise me how the loss of this simple piece of raw data can be derived from SOG. " One might simply say, it can't.
The only way to find your speed through the water, is to measure the flow of the water relative to the boat, and there's no way to derive that from just the speed over ground. To someone driving a powerboat, or driving a sailboat like a powerboat, SOG may be enough. For tactical decisions under sail, knowing how the water is moving, how the water is offsetting the boat, is necessary. Let's say you are sailing from New Jersey to Gibraltar. At some point you will hit the Gulf Stream, and the difference between STW and SOG will clue you into that (and eddies) immediately. If you're just a lake sailor that may never matter, but even in harbors and bays, you can't accoutn for currents OR take advantage of them, without STW.

"Can someone please explain how a gps chip rated for 10m accuracy can provide true SOG consistently?" Consistently? Why sure, the readings are consistent--within that limit of accuracy. In theory, the GPS may jump ten meters from one "reading" to the next, but in practice that ten meter accuracy/error will be fairly consistent. If it is off by eight meters northwest, that's typically from atmospheric distortions that will reamin constant from one reading to the next. So, the position will jump around, but not as grossly as the amount of position error.

When GPS was new and the civilian signal was degraded on purpose, yes, you'd see more "jumping".

"Secondly, insurance: I don't know if many people cruising take out insurance? how is that insurance affected by the use of non marine rated tech in what is I presume categorized as a hazardous pursuit? will that Ipad void your insurance cover? "
Insurers don't ask what your technology is,nor do they ask if you know how to use it. They only want your credentials, and to know the number of people who will be aboard to stand watch.

"Thirdly, that one gadget syndrome:"
One gadget is actually more reliable, has fewer ways to fail, than a dozen gadgets. Still needs a backup. Of course if you know the sun usually rises in the east and sets in the west...well, there are backups in case that fails, too.<G>

"Consider how in 2009, AF447 lost one vital metric, true airspeed, and this led"
Not so simple. The crew were relying on that metric and at the time, had no others or did not take advantage of them. IIRC the investigation produced new procedures that account for this loss and continued operation despite it.

"Then I was lost. Completely. " I took my nephew to pick up his car, a stick shift. He figured he could learn on it because he knew video games. After the first trip (buck, halt, stall, repeat) around the parking lot he was all perspired and red and said "Wow, that's not like the video game!"

Which is why sailing simulators have never really taken off. There's too much visceral feedback you can't program in without a full Link Trainer.
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Old 26-03-2013, 16:01   #67
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

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I was sold on chartplotters with a PC back up at the nav desk until my friend Tucker broke it all down for me....

Crossing an Ocean with iNavX

Now we are giving serious thought to going with the tablet options.
He uses a Brookhouse Imux -- a new device I am hearing about for the first time. It's very cool -- it bridges NMEA0183 data to TCP/IP over wifi. So for $400, you have the complete link between your NMEA0183 network and an IPad.

Still, by the time you buy the Imux, an IPad, and a license for INavX, and some kind of case for the IPad, you've spent around a grand or more, and for that money you can have a Simrad NSS7 or the new Raymarine 7" plotter. I cannot imagine why anyone would pass up a real marine plotter at that price -- you cannot cobble up anything comparable out of household components for any money, much less a grand. INavX is fine for what it is, but it is very light in function -- I would never want it for a primary nav system. The IPad is fine for what it is, but it's not daylight visible and it's quite delicate.

In any case, to make that work, you will have to have an NMEA network, which means you will need, at a minimum, a DST transducer (do they make an all-in-one DST which directly outputs NMEA0183?, and to output that to NMEA0183 I think you will need some kind of display. So you're not going to be able to get away entirely from marine electronics.

You could actually construct a more minimalist system with N2K and a Simrad NSS7 -- all you would need is:

Airmar DST800
Simrad NSS7
One N2K cable and two in-line terminators
One power injector

That's it! Much simpler and more elegant than something cobbled up with a tablet, not to mention more powerul, more rugged, etc., etc..

And you could easily add a wind instrument to that (when you realize how ridiculous it is to sail without a wind instrument), and you can directly control an autopilot from the NSS7.

I think the new Raymarine E7 has an advantage over the Simrad in that it has Wifi built in, so you can directly connect your IPad to it.
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Old 26-03-2013, 16:38   #68
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Tablets will destroy Garmin Raymarine etc. Its a matter of time. We will have wireless sensors feeding info to the waterproof tablet devices. Even engine data. Everything will be controlled and or monitored on tablet devices.
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Old 26-03-2013, 16:42   #69
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Get into this technology or die!
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Old 26-03-2013, 17:15   #70
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

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Allio-
"as a landlubber maybe someone can advise me how the loss of this simple piece of raw data can be derived from SOG. " One might simply say, it can't.
The only way to find your speed through the water, is to measure the flow of the water relative to the boat, and there's no way to derive that from just the speed over ground. To someone driving a powerboat, or driving a sailboat like a powerboat, SOG may be enough. For tactical decisions under sail, knowing how the water is moving, how the water is offsetting the boat, is necessary. Let's say you are sailing from New Jersey to Gibraltar. At some point you will hit the Gulf Stream, and the difference between STW and SOG will clue you into that (and eddies) immediately. If you're just a lake sailor that may never matter, but even in harbors and bays, you can't accoutn for currents OR take advantage of them, without STW.
I understand all of the above. Maybe what I meant to ask was for the person who was advocating against the need for a through hull for STW measurement how HE copes without this basic metric.
Quote:

"Can someone please explain how a gps chip rated for 10m accuracy can provide true SOG consistently?" Consistently? Why sure, the readings are consistent--within that limit of accuracy. In theory, the GPS may jump ten meters from one "reading" to the next, but in practice that ten meter accuracy/error will be fairly consistent. If it is off by eight meters northwest, that's typically from atmospheric distortions that will reamin constant from one reading to the next. So, the position will jump around, but not as grossly as the amount of position error.
at the low speeds a sailing vessel moves at, even small jumps in position could generate erroneous speed measurements. Now not being a sailor, can a sailboats speed change drastically over a small timeframe? compounded with these small computational errors can this lead to erroneous instantaneous decisions based on inaccurate speed measurements?
Quote:

When GPS was new and the civilian signal was degraded on purpose, yes, you'd see more "jumping".

"Secondly, insurance: I don't know if many people cruising take out insurance? how is that insurance affected by the use of non marine rated tech in what is I presume categorized as a hazardous pursuit? will that Ipad void your insurance cover? "
Insurers don't ask what your technology is,nor do they ask if you know how to use it. They only want your credentials, and to know the number of people who will be aboard to stand watch.
I never assumed that they did. However down there in that bedeviled fine print is there a requirement for certain standards? Training appropriate to circumstance? Technology when fitted, is fit for purpose? etc etc... we all know that insurance companies hate to pay out.... Just because they don't ask.
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"Thirdly, that one gadget syndrome:"
One gadget is actually more reliable, has fewer ways to fail, than a dozen gadgets. Still needs a backup. Of course if you know the sun usually rises in the east and sets in the west...well, there are backups in case that fails, too.<G>
This is not true. Yes every gadget is susceptible to failure. However failure of the ONE gadget that does everything results in a 100% failure of systems, whereas the failure of one gadget in an array might only slightly downgrade performance....

Quote:
"Consider how in 2009, AF447 lost one vital metric, true airspeed, and this led"
Not so simple. The crew were relying on that metric and at the time, had no others or did not take advantage of them. IIRC the investigation produced new procedures that account for this loss and continued operation despite it.

"Then I was lost. Completely. " I took my nephew to pick up his car, a stick shift. He figured he could learn on it because he knew video games. After the first trip (buck, halt, stall, repeat) around the parking lot he was all perspired and red and said "Wow, that's not like the video game!"

Which is why sailing simulators have never really taken off. There's too much visceral feedback you can't program in without a full Link Trainer.
Yet my experience of flying (which is just as visceral) led me to believe that flight sim can teach you IMC flight quite proficiently. To the point that at the end of my first lesson, my instructor allowed me to take off. ascend ,turn, complete a circuit, approach and landing while in full control of the aircraft..... So why not a sailing simulator? All of the non visual cues can be interpreted to a visual system, and all of the visual cues could easily be displayed... Modern software physics engines should be well capable of emulating the experience....

Driving games are not true simulators of driving, in that they don't lend themselves to emulate the true relationship between driver, clutch and engine that is required to drive stick....
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Old 26-03-2013, 17:34   #71
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

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...well, there are backups in case that fails, too.<G>
Now I'm the one who doesn't understand your point!
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Old 26-03-2013, 18:37   #72
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

Well, that's easy, Catakate. It is well documented that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west only because Lord Apollo chooses to carry it that way in his chariot. And equally well documented that the Gods sometimes do what they please, not what men expect. So if one day Apollo hauls off or sleeps in...the prudent navigator can find other means to navigate, even if the sun fails to rise and set in the expected places. Or simply if it is really badly overcast.<G>

My GPS fails, do I need a sextant? Only if I'm shooting to hit or miss small targets. Ooops, dropped the sextant, tinkle tinkle. Good thing a backup GPS is so cheap.

Allio-
Regarding single failure modes, that's why transoceanic aircraft usually have two engines these days. Not three, not four, although four used to be the hallmark of safety. The problem is that with 4 engines you have a much greater chance of one engine failing, which mandates an emergency landing. With only two engines, the aircraft is much more reliable--even if a single failure may prevent climbing or sustained flight, and still require an emergency landing. Anything more (like triple redundancy in military systems) is considered unnecessary, unless you're in a space program or combat. Single common failure mode isn't a problem, if you've got a backup for it. As opposed to a shelf full of separate spares.

avazquez-
you will never see mass market tablets replace dedicated marine ones, until someone figures out how to make daylight-readable displays as cheaply as all the others. Right now, even the super-amoled displays used on the best tablets and cell phones, are a washed out pale imitation of dedicated marine displays. Right now. And waterproofing to any standard is actively discouraged in mass market goods. First, because it raises prives and cuts the profit margin like mad, which also reduces sales volume and cuts the profits even more. And second, because the makers actually WANT mass-market goods to be water damaged. The owner typically feels guilty (I shouldn't have used it in the rain, even my radio says not to use it in the bath) and simply buys a new one--which is GREAT for the profit margin.

Catch-22, there's a separate market for marine displays and devices.
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Old 26-03-2013, 19:50   #73
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Well, that's easy, Catakate. It is well documented that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west only because Lord Apollo chooses to carry it that way in his chariot. And equally well documented that the Gods sometimes do what they please, not what men expect. So if one day Apollo hauls off or sleeps in...the prudent navigator can find other means to navigate, even if the sun fails to rise and set in the expected places. Or simply if it is really badly overcast.<G>

My GPS fails, do I need a sextant? Only if I'm shooting to hit or miss small targets. Ooops, dropped the sextant, tinkle tinkle. Good thing a backup GPS is so cheap.

Allio-
Regarding single failure modes, that's why transoceanic aircraft usually have two engines these days. Not three, not four, although four used to be the hallmark of safety. The problem is that with 4 engines you have a much greater chance of one engine failing, which mandates an emergency landing. With only two engines, the aircraft is much more reliable--even if a single failure may prevent climbing or sustained flight, and still require an emergency landing. Anything more (like triple redundancy in military systems) is considered unnecessary, unless you're in a space program or combat. Single common failure mode isn't a problem, if you've got a backup for it. As opposed to a shelf full of separate spares.

avazquez-
you will never see mass market tablets replace dedicated marine ones, until someone figures out how to make daylight-readable displays as cheaply as all the others. Right now, even the super-amoled displays used on the best tablets and cell phones, are a washed out pale imitation of dedicated marine displays. Right now. And waterproofing to any standard is actively discouraged in mass market goods. First, because it raises prives and cuts the profit margin like mad, which also reduces sales volume and cuts the profits even more. And second, because the makers actually WANT mass-market goods to be water damaged. The owner typically feels guilty (I shouldn't have used it in the rain, even my radio says not to use it in the bath) and simply buys a new one--which is GREAT for the profit margin.

Catch-22, there's a separate market for marine displays and devices.
It is a matter of time. Maybe the circumnavigators will continue to use the marine devices BUT the coastal cruiser sailors and motor boaters will end up using some sort of tablet. Guys this is like the music or movies technology. If companies like Garmin or Raymarine etc dont jump in they will be GONE. Just like Blockbuster. This is it the future is here in the next five years there will be a major transformation in the way coastal navigation is done. All instrumentation will be wireless and will feed data to either a receiver with bluetooth or something better. Hundreds of apps will be available at affordable prices. The era of the "marine" gadgets and overpriced instruments is almost gone. Just sit and watch it explode all over the world. Aftermarket devices such as waterproof covers and lenses are here or around the corner.
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Old 26-03-2013, 21:04   #74
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

Hi Allio, to answer your question about SOG vs SOW which I felt directed to me:
I personally don't see the added value of SOW when sailing. It is true that SOG cannot tell the difference between X knots in a X opposite current, and Y knots in a Y opposite current. I personally feel like I don't need to know the exact strenght of the current (which is anyway not given by SOW, as you don't know the current's heading). Having my real speed (distance travelled) is enough to me. If I realize it's too slow compared to what it should be I usually can estimate pretty accurately (+/- 1 knot I would say) by how much. I know my hull speed. I sailed my boat before in a variety of conditions. I don't see what exactly I'm going to learn by realizing that I go 5 knots SOW, and 3 SOG. If can realize by myself a discrepancy (measured less accurately, ok, but we usually know what are boat speed could be or should be in a certain situation) then I can look at the GPS and/or try a few sail trimming and points of sail and I will very quickly determine the direction and strenght of the current. I don't see what I miss from having SOW written somewhere, apart from some kind of "alarm" that there is a difference between both speed. However, this alarm is not accurate, as there is always a difference in both speeds (some people spend their life trying to recalibrate the speed date, it just never stays in place and it's hard to crosscheck accuracy). And I consider this not so accurate alarm really not more accurate than me saying "wait, with this wind and this bearing, I should be going 6.5knots. I am going 4. Let's figure it out." Which is basically what the SOW tells you, nothing more, as far as I know. Maybe I missed something. But I live without pretty well. I use speed indications for estimating arrival and duration (this is SOG), and improving sails trim (ok with SOG). The current thing, I don't really buy it. The best indicator to figure out current is still the GPS (as it will also give you some directional information). So maybe there is a mysterious other usage of being able to record exact SOW, but I am not aware of it.
Hopefully we can keep this topic on track, which was to know what are the best options out there in terms of software / hardware and also how do the sensors work. To those who posted information in this regard, many thanks.
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Old 26-03-2013, 21:41   #75
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

decca-
"I personally feel like I don't need to know the exact strenght of the current (which is anyway not given by SOW, as you don't know the current's heading)."
Ah, but THERE you can indeed calculate to determine the current's heading. Weems & Plath sell a device that essentially is a pilots E6B flight computer (analog computer) and you can use that, or the information from boat speed, bearing, and heading, to compute the missing information for the current. Computing it via an analog computer wheel with vectors is simpler than doing the math, but an instrument application can solve it the same way.

Do you need it? No, unless you are trying to race, or simply make good time.

If SOG was all that anyone needed, do you think the cursed paddlewheels would still be standard on almost all boats that have any type of instrumentation?

Knowing the current (speed and direction) can also tell you which tack is favored, and that can tell you which one to favor for the best speed toward your goal.

If you're going to build an application and you're intending to omit a standard simply because you don't see any need for it, reconsider. It is, after all, a standard for a reason.

Logically, if you want to head dead downwind, you run dead downwind, right? Wrong. Most modern boats (not all, just most) make better time gybing back and forth and not running dead downwind. It makes no sense to the casual eye, until you learn there's stuff like cosines and by running off, most boats well exceed the speed they can make dead downwind. There's a reason why it is done--even if you don't see it, or it doesn't apply to your boat.

avazquez-
Many things are a matter of time. But for the here and now? Tablets certainly do a job to a price. They just don't do it on a sunny day, or in a downpour. I wouldn't trust a Pantech to survive very long, and I'd still try to keep even a Toughpad out of green water.<G>
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