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Old 24-03-2013, 21:49   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ram View Post
If im not mistaken-Tablet GPS are only good for near shore use, offshore they do not work, thay don’t work around mountains, and are limited by cell coverage -so if your going to use it more than a few miles offshore I don’t think its going to work, of corse ive was wrong once before so i may be wrong again?
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Old 24-03-2013, 21:54   #32
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

Actually, we LOVE using the ipad for navigation. We have ours in a sealed flexible waterproof plastic carry case (I think cost was about $25) ... cant take a laptop topside ... run Navionics charts, plot courses and find it very easy to zoom in and out ... GREAT TOOL! Our mate, Andrew on his boat Champolion, used it for his transatlantic crossing, navigating the entire Caribbean Island chain as well as Bahamas very successfully. He only installed a small Raymarine plotter toward the end of his journey in order to sell the boat. We use Raymarine chart plotters, Lap top with Open Cpn and other packages ... my favourite ... iPad!
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Old 24-03-2013, 23:07   #33
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

Hey, thank you all for your answers, it's getting interesting!

for the speed through water, let's just agree to disagree. I personally don't need it, and I believe that SOG will give me all information I need (ultimately, the current is part of the equation Speed through water = SOG - (current)x(current angle). Whether you have one or the other doesn't mater, it is the "x" or the "y" of the same equation. And having both simply for the pleasure of doing the maths is pushing it, IMO.

For the refresh rate, I agree with estarzinger and hello sailor: 1hz is enough when it comes to the position, and gps ranks between 1hz to 10hz (nice to get a confirmation there). However, for instant speed display, it is to say to get immediate result for trimming changes, it would be nice to have 5hz or even 10hz. When you think of an update every second (1hz), it is clearly enough for position, it is kind of slow for a speedometer (an update several times per second makes the recording more smooth. Think about it as a music tempo in your head, like a metronome. every 1/2 second or even every 1/4 second would be nice, and isn't too fast at all for the human brain to process).

As hello sailor mentioned it, the refresh rate of the tablet screen isn't the issue (extremely fast, no matter which tablet is used) but the refresh rate of the GPS chip is. For those who don't know much about this, a GPS chip is "calling" the satellites every so often (for like 10 ms every second for a 1hz, more or less, and 10 times more for a 10hz) and this is an operation that is battery consuming. getting the position updated by the GPS chip more often would dramatically increase the battery consumption, as hello sailor very rightly mentioned it. However:
1- this speed can be regulated through software (an app can decide the frequency update if the chip has the capacity). therefore, I would prefer to have this possibility, and let's say put it in 10hz modes while racing or playing with the sails, and in 1hz for cruising/crossings.

2- this is also why I want a setup with the tablet permanently on charge, connected to the boat batteries. This is nothing for the boat batteries, and this is what the best marine GPS are doing anyway. I would not rely on a tablet as a GPS that is not on permanent charge for anything else than an evening sail.
Conclusion: 1hz could do it, 5hz would be better, and this is why the specific GPS coming out right now for the purpose of speed recording are ranging between 5hz and 10 hz. (for positioning, 1hz is clearly enough).

Thanks to Impie and Dulce Suenos for their contribution, I'll have a look at these and come back with feedback! I'm so happy to get some more material to investigate.
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Old 25-03-2013, 04:20   #34
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

It's not quite as simple as "And having both simply for the pleasure of doing the maths is pushing it, IMO" would imply.

If you don't have both, you can't work out what the current is doing. And some people in some situations will need to know what the current is doing, and it's not because they simply "take pleasure in doing the maths"

However I can well understand that you do not care what the current is doing, and if that's so, then you're right, you don't need both.
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Old 25-03-2013, 05:23   #35
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decca , you are engaging in some wishful thinking here.


There is no standard yet that allows you to access say a wind or depth transducer , so you'll have to buy a proprietary setup like digital yacht to transfer NMEA 2k to wifi. ( then there no integrated software and there isn't going to be any until the standard gets sorted ) you never even mentioned AIS or RADaR unto a tablet issues. Not to mention the setup and calibration issues without having a manufacturers display device.

Nor are we close to having saying a standard to feed a tablet GPS back into,NMEA 2k

Then to my knowledge there is no autopilot integration.

Consumer grade electronics in cheap stuff like tablets will have much shorter lives then marine grade stuff. Just take a look at the temp specs.

As we go forward , consumer tablets will made from cheaper and cheaper components with the resulting drop in reliability. That's fine online, you walk to your store. Not so good in a storm off shore.

I'm a big apple fanboy , but ill still sail offshore with a proper marine instrument setup.

Today the setup isn't much more then a high end tablet. ( see Garmins 500 pr 700 range ) and I can interface it easily to autopilots NMEA 2K, wind depth etc

No more then industrial computing s different , so s the marine environment.

By all means be an experimenter , but its never going to be mainstream. Laptops are button these days , people were saying years ago laptops would kill off dedicated MFDs , how'd that work out then !!

The marine electronics sector is more like buying a high end audio setup, the people that buy it arnt interested in IT , just in sailing , they want to plug it all together simply and it works and they go sailing. The market is different and that's why MFDs are still there and growing.

If you are looking at autopilot , wind , depth , radar , AIS , VHF, etc the display unit is often the cheapest .

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Old 25-03-2013, 05:28   #36
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

I guess I am the ancient mariner. I judge the sea state and wind force by looking at it, wind direction and boat speed by feeling. In addition to that I have a set of 30 year old Data Marine instruments that I keep spare parts for to keep them working and an old Raytheon R40x green radar. The last 4 years I have been using a Dell mini for my chart plotter with a GPS puck.

I am looking at a tablet for the cockpit that will run Coastal Explorer over wifi on the boat.

One point that needs to be made is that all of this fancy tech stuff is neat and the colors a pretty but everything is based on paper charts, surveys an data that can be 50 to 70 years old.

How many people read a depth sounder without knowing where the transponder is in relationship to the bottom of the keel. $15,000 worth of electronics may not be any better that a geezer and a paper chart.
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Old 25-03-2013, 05:39   #37
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

theonecalledtom:

In the same webpage you pointed, is a real waterproof, rugged, sunlight-readable WSVGA, with internal GPS, running MS Windows tablet
Check it out:

Trimble - Mapping & GIS - Yuma Rugged Tablet Computer

Check also the available accesories (12v charger, mounting plate, etc..)
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Old 25-03-2013, 07:08   #38
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmackay View Post
I guess I am the ancient mariner. I judge the sea state and wind force by looking at it, wind direction and boat speed by feeling. In addition to that I have a set of 30 year old Data Marine instruments that I keep spare parts for to keep them working and an old Raytheon R40x green radar. The last 4 years I have been using a Dell mini for my chart plotter with a GPS puck.

I am looking at a tablet for the cockpit that will run Coastal Explorer over wifi on the boat.

One point that needs to be made is that all of this fancy tech stuff is neat and the colors a pretty but everything is based on paper charts, surveys an data that can be 50 to 70 years old.

How many people read a depth sounder without knowing where the transponder is in relationship to the bottom of the keel. $15,000 worth of electronics may not be any better that a geezer and a paper chart.
Honestly, I can't find any reason why a system couldn't be designed to run all (some) of the modules a boat can be equipped with. With bluetooth technology, a system could be designed much like what we say in the Star Trek shows when growing up. This system could have one 10" pad that could dock at the helm with a 7" tablet that docked in each cabin. Hell, it could even be programmed to dim the cabin lights from the cockpit.

Ultimately the market will dictate when it will be built. And if my marina any example of the sailing 'market' then it is a ways off, as I am the 'young buck' in my marina at 40yo. But as more folks from my generation (or younger) get into cruising/sailing I think that the folks at Google or Apple (prob with a partnership with a 'marine' company') will pioneer a system like this...no doubts.
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Old 25-03-2013, 13:24   #39
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

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Honestly, I can't find any reason why a system couldn't be designed to run all (some) of the modules a boat can be equipped with. With bluetooth technology, a system could be designed much like what we say in the Star Trek shows when growing up. This system could have one 10" pad that could dock at the helm with a 7" tablet that docked in each cabin. Hell, it could even be programmed to dim the cabin lights from the cockpit.

Ultimately the market will dictate when it will be built. And if my marina any example of the sailing 'market' then it is a ways off, as I am the 'young buck' in my marina at 40yo. But as more folks from my generation (or younger) get into cruising/sailing I think that the folks at Google or Apple (prob with a partnership with a 'marine' company') will pioneer a system like this...no doubts.

The "market" for marine electronics is estimated at under 1 billion dollars worldwide ( see Panbo) , thats less the 1/10 of teh annual sales of the iPad alone. SO well see just what "market" forces are at play here in reality.

Just like laptops were going to remove dedicated MFDs a few years ago, howd that work out then

Not to mention the manufacturers have to recoup all that investment in dedicated expensive radars, AIS ,smart transducers etc, they have no real interest in "open systems" , if they dont build open radars, just where will your niche get them from

Boaters arnt IT , they want to buy a system, plug it togethe,r and go sailing, many people just use the systems that come with the new boat as is.

Integrated tablet software for plotting, radar ais is still a long way off, becuase teh standards rant there for data transfer and NMEA is under a lot of pressure to control "third party gateways" ( see Chetco for that story etc)

Young people are not active in cruising/sailing, its an aging sport , Young people today are likely to have less disposable income then their parents, no household equity to release and a tougher loans market.

Tablets on boats will be just like Laptops on boats , a niche "nerdy" type solution for people that like alternative "roll your own" solutions.

Today you can buy quite capable integrated plotters for under 1000 dollars and some under 600 dollars, all with NMEA2k interconnectivity, waterproof to IPx7 and sunlight readable screens, Wheres the advantage in using a cheap, soon to be "throwaway" consumer tablet, with cheap 2-3 year life electronics and dubious reliability.

The rest is "wishful" thinking


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Old 25-03-2013, 14:02   #40
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

A superb state of the art true marine plotter with built in GPS and with truly waterproof, ruggedized, and daylight visible screen, like the Simrad NSS7, can be had for about a grand, so there really isn't a rational reason to try to make a pig fly - I.e., try to force a light duty,household entertainment device into a role for which it was not designed.


But if you're just curious as to whether you can manage it, knock yourself out. It will work OK. I have been using an IPad with INavX for a couple of years as a second/remote/backup plotter,and it does more or less everyting you need. The GPS performance is fine. The screen is not visible in bright sun, and if you need to navigate in a storm you've got problems.

You can hook it up to wind instruments, depth, and speed transducers using the DigitalYacht NMEA to wifi bridge. You'll spend more money for an inferior solution, but certainly it can be done.

One piece of advice, in all seriousness - do NOT get rid of your regular magnetic compass. If everything goes tats up, even if you have real marine electronics, you need a compass.
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Old 25-03-2013, 14:19   #41
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjt View Post
theonecalledtom:

In the same webpage you pointed, is a real waterproof, rugged, sunlight-readable WSVGA, with internal GPS, running MS Windows tablet
Check it out:

Trimble - Mapping & GIS - Yuma Rugged Tablet Computer

Check also the available accesories (12v charger, mounting plate, etc..)
Just what you need! And it's only $4125! Plus software, charts, nmea to wifi bridge, etc. You can probably be up and running for well under 6 grand!
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Old 25-03-2013, 14:19   #42
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

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One piece of advice, in all seriousness - do NOT get rid of your regular magnetic compass. If everything goes tats up, even if you have real marine electronics, you need a compass.
In addition, depending on the country of registry, you may be required to have one.
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Old 25-03-2013, 14:20   #43
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjt View Post
theonecalledtom:

In the same webpage you pointed, is a real waterproof, rugged, sunlight-readable WSVGA, with internal GPS, running MS Windows tablet
Check it out:

Trimble - Mapping & GIS - Yuma Rugged Tablet Computer

Check also the available accesories (12v charger, mounting plate, etc..)
I was excited about the Yuma until I saw the price bracket....

The 7" toughpad is a bit closer to home (~$1200?) and might work well. I wish there was a smaller Xperia Z, though I'd prefer something smaller in my already cramped cockpit and it'll need a protective case to protect itself from excited monkey's during gybes and it's probably not so daylight visible.
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Old 25-03-2013, 14:22   #44
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

Quote:
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Just what you need! And it's only $4125! Plus software, charts, nmea to wifi bridge, etc. You can probably be up and running for well under 6 grand!
Open CPN, free charts and building your own NMEA interface knocks 2k off that and adds a few years to the project
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Old 25-03-2013, 15:21   #45
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Re: A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The "market" for marine electronics is estimated at under 1 billion dollars worldwide ( see Panbo) , thats less the 1/10 of teh annual sales of the iPad alone. SO well see just what "market" forces are at play here in reality.

Just like laptops were going to remove dedicated MFDs a few years ago, howd that work out then

Not to mention the manufacturers have to recoup all that investment in dedicated expensive radars, AIS ,smart transducers etc, they have no real interest in "open systems" , if they dont build open radars, just where will your niche get them from

Boaters arnt IT , they want to buy a system, plug it togethe,r and go sailing, many people just use the systems that come with the new boat as is.

Integrated tablet software for plotting, radar ais is still a long way off, becuase teh standards rant there for data transfer and NMEA is under a lot of pressure to control "third party gateways" ( see Chetco for that story etc)

Young people are not active in cruising/sailing, its an aging sport , Young people today are likely to have less disposable income then their parents, no household equity to release and a tougher loans market.

Tablets on boats will be just like Laptops on boats , a niche "nerdy" type solution for people that like alternative "roll your own" solutions.

Today you can buy quite capable integrated plotters for under 1000 dollars and some under 600 dollars, all with NMEA2k interconnectivity, waterproof to IPx7 and sunlight readable screens, Wheres the advantage in using a cheap, soon to be "throwaway" consumer tablet, with cheap 2-3 year life electronics and dubious reliability.

The rest is "wishful" thinking


Dave
Dave, I can agree with a lot of what you said......except.

1) I never spoke of 'replacement', it often takes a generation to replace anything techno(ish). Example could be the CRT (TUBED) type TV's (I had one up until a year ago...it worked...I used) vs flat panel.

2) That 'wishful' thinking was the exact same opinion of most when it was said that a mobile phone would be in the hand of ever working adult. Now with government programs, one doesn't even have to work....let alone the hoards in the teenage population with them. Wait...so by this definition I guess I would agree with you on this too!

All I am saying is, the market will dictate if/when this technology will hit boats. It is not unlike what is already being installed in automobiles. If the boat market can use it to sell a new boat over a used one...I am thinking it will start to incorporate it. It isn't like it is 'new' technology it is just that the current stuff isn't 'waterproof'.
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