Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 26-06-2014, 03:12   #1
Registered User

Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 572
You are setting your anchors badly and then blaming the anchors

Well, are you blaming your anchor?

Look at the history on here.
Look at the thread called ...Photos of Anchors Setting.

Ok, so you learned to nicely let out the chain slowly so it's not all on the anchor and let it settle and give it a gentle pull. Then deploy 4:1 rode so we don't take too much space.
But it's causing confusion and bad/weak setting practices.

Just dump it and start reversing, then let out at least 5:1 every time (as nearly all of you have too smaller anchors anyway). Take the weight off the windlass and then pull it at 75% power if you have a fixed prop and a big engine, or 100% power if folding.

Too scared that the engine pulls it out on a sunny afternoon, but you expect or really wish it will hold in a gale.

Do your anchor setting tests in the afternoon... It's more convenient than 3 in the morning.
__________________

Fuss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2014, 03:21   #2
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The boat: Cowes (Winter), Above 60N (Summer); me: somewhere in the air!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 23,104
Re: You are setting your anchors badly and then blaming the anchors

My father, who has spent probably a million nights at anchor on his own boats, still hates it when I give the full power pull on my anchor after it's set. "You'll pull it out! Then you'll have to start all over again!" He always says, nervous because of the risk of delay of cocktail hour.

I have tried and tried to explain to him . . .

After working the anchor into the seabed and adjusting the scope, I always give several minutes of full power -- 100 horsepower worth -- in astern. Blows the carbon out of the engine at the same time.
__________________

Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2014, 03:21   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Australia
Boat: 21 ft sail boat
Posts: 347
Re: You are setting your anchors badly and then blaming the anchors

Makes sense to me but I thought this has been covered in the thousands of previous posts on the subject. Did I miss something?
Adventurebound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2014, 03:25   #4
Registered User

Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 572
Re: You are setting your anchors badly and then blaming the anchors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
My father, who has spent probably a million nights at anchor on his own boats, still hates it when I give the full power pull on my anchor after it's set. "You'll pull it out! Then you'll have to start all over again!" He always says, nervous because of the risk of delay of cocktail hour.

I have tried and tried to explain to him . . .

After working the anchor into the seabed and adjusting the scope, I always give several minutes of full power -- 100 horsepower worth -- in astern. Blows the carbon out of the engine at the same time.
Perfect!!! sounds good to me.
I bet it would not be possible to get a photo of your anchor lying on its side badly set.
Fuss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2014, 04:35   #5
Marine Service Provider
 
NornaBiron's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Greece
Boat: Custom steel cutter, 15m
Posts: 649
Re: You are setting your anchors badly and then blaming the anchors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuss View Post
Well, are you blaming your anchor?

Look at the history on here.
Look at the thread called ...Photos of Anchors Setting.

Ok, so you learned to nicely let out the chain slowly so it's not all on the anchor and let it settle and give it a gentle pull. Then deploy 4:1 rode so we don't take too much space.
But it's causing confusion and bad/weak setting practices.

Just dump it and start reversing, then let out at least 5:1 every time (as nearly all of you have too smaller anchors anyway). Take the weight off the windlass and then pull it at 75% power if you have a fixed prop and a big engine, or 100% power if folding.

Too scared that the engine pulls it out on a sunny afternoon, but you expect or really wish it will hold in a gale.

Do your anchor setting tests in the afternoon... It's more convenient than 3 in the morning.
I don't think that most of us who have contributed to that thread are doing that at all. We have taken some photos of some pretty badly or un set anchors and have described the setting technique used to arrive at this result when seen. We see an amazing array of setting techniques when anchoring around Greece/Turkey, from 'drop the anchor and a pile of chain and hope for the best' to 'lets just make sure the anchor touches the bottom'. We always dive to check other's anchors when we see poor techniques as we don't want another boat dragging onto us in the middle of the night. We consider that we set our anchor properly and are always happy with it when we check, as can be seen in our posts on the thread.
__________________
Sail repairs by cruisers for cruisers
NornaBiron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2014, 04:40   #6
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 23,261
Images: 2
pirate Re: You are setting your anchors badly and then blaming the anchors

You go your way I'll stick with mine.. just don't what so many of you engine folk seem to love.. drop the hook 500 metres in front of me then full power back till your sitting smack over my hook..
Please..
__________________


Born To Be Wild.. Click on the picture.
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2014, 05:08   #7
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The boat: Cowes (Winter), Above 60N (Summer); me: somewhere in the air!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 23,104
Re: You are setting your anchors badly and then blaming the anchors

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
You go your way I'll stick with mine.. just don't what so many of you engine folk seem to love.. drop the hook 500 metres in front of me then full power back till your sitting smack over my hook..
Please..
Since I only have 100 meters of chain, if I end up 500 meters back from where I dropped the hook, it means the hook didn't go in, so I haul it back up and go around for another pass.

In fact, that determination is made far earlier than 500 meters from where the hook was dropped. A little off topic, but this is one place where a chart plotter, set on highest scale, and with tracks enabled, is incredibly valuable. You can see really well from your track whether and exactly where the hook set. If you are slowly dragging through soft mud (my previous bower anchor, a Rocna, used to love to do that), you can also see that clearly. Transits are all well and good, but you can't get all this information without a plotter.
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2014, 05:21   #8
Registered User

Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 572
Re: You are setting your anchors badly and then blaming the anchors

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
You go your way I'll stick with mine.. just don't what so many of you engine folk seem to love.. drop the hook 500 metres in front of me then full power back till your sitting smack over my hook..
Please..
I would not put so much importance on that problem Boatman61. A boat directly over your anchor in no way indicates that they have anchored incorrectly.
Indeed, this can happen many times during a period at anchor as the boats swing to the wind.

Have you not noticed that?
Fuss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2014, 05:31   #9
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 23,261
Images: 2
pirate Re: You are setting your anchors badly and then blaming the anchors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuss View Post
I would not put so much importance on that problem Boatman61. A boat directly over your anchor in no way indicates that they have anchored incorrectly.
Indeed, this can happen many times during a period at anchor as the boats swing to the wind.

Have you not noticed that?
Did not say they'd anchored incorrectly.. inconsiderately would be a better word..
And if that happens when they swing they've anchored to close..
Have you not noticed that..??
__________________


Born To Be Wild.. Click on the picture.
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2014, 05:55   #10
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The boat: Cowes (Winter), Above 60N (Summer); me: somewhere in the air!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 23,104
Re: You are setting your anchors badly and then blaming the anchors

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Did not say they'd anchored incorrectly.. inconsiderately would be a better word..
And if that happens when they swing they've anchored to close..
Have you not noticed that..??
I agree with Fuss that a boat floating above your anchor doesn't necessarily mean it's anchored either wrong or inconsiderately. In a crowded anchorage, this may be inevitable. In crowded anchorages, boats are usually anchored close enough together, in any case, that if they swung in different directions, they might collide. But since most boats with roughly the same scope out will swing roughly the same, this is usually not a problem, so it is usually not necessary to anchor so far apart that there are no other boats within theoretically overlapping swinging circles.

I am deeper draft than average and have a long, heavy chain, so I do my best to avoid crowded anchorages, usually just by anchoring a bit further out than the crowd. If there's shelter enough, water up to 20 meters deep is not a problem for us. Or best of all, just don't cruise where there are crowds. Where I am now (Eastern Baltic), there are millions of islands and coves, and I have not yet shared an anchorage with even one other boat so far this summer. Bliss!
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2014, 05:56   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,487
Re: You are setting your anchors badly and then blaming the anchors

Actually when a boat ends up over your anchor they have anchored improperly because if for some reason I have to get out in a hurry I'm not able to because some dimwit anchored on top of me. To me people who do this either don't know any better or are dumb to good boat manners.
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2014, 06:16   #12
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The boat: Cowes (Winter), Above 60N (Summer); me: somewhere in the air!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 23,104
Re: You are setting your anchors badly and then blaming the anchors

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Actually when a boat ends up over your anchor they have anchored improperly because if for some reason I have to get out in a hurry I'm not able to because some dimwit anchored on top of me. To me people who do this either don't know any better or are dumb to good boat manners.
In crowded anchorages, where I can't lie outside the crowd, I try to avoid ending up over someone else's anchor by setting mine at least a little offset to the boat behind.

But sometimes even that is not possible, and it does not necessarily mean that the other guy is a "dimwit", which I think is an unhelpful attitude. You also sometimes just can't tell where the other guy's anchor is, because you don't guess his scope correctly (or he can't tell you when you ask him).

When I need to get out of an anchorage, and there is someone floating above my anchor, I simply ask politely that the other guy pull in some chain (it never takes much) for a few minutes so that he moves up a bit until I can get my anchor up. Never once had a problem with this; this is NOT a problematic situation worth getting nervous or aggressive about and spoiling your own mood, and that of others.

A much more serious problem is when someone lays an anchor chain across yours, so that you bring up his chain when you pull yours up. This shouldn't happen if you are backing down in the right direction, but it does sometimes happen. This requires cooperation, because you can easily trip out the other guy's anchor and set him adrift. Sometimes he will have to re-anchor. I find that an extra measure of politeness is really needed in such situations.
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2014, 06:34   #13
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Boat: Bestevaer.
Posts: 11,296
Re: You are setting your anchors badly and then blaming the anchors

Judging if and how much you are moving backwards is the area that most beginners have the most trouble.

There are four basic ways:

1. Transits

2. GPS/chartplotter

3. Vibration, or jumping of the snubber or rode. Some people use feel (often by putting their foot on the rode) others visually look at rode. If the anchor is not holding it will often jump, or hop as the anchor grabs and releases. However this does not work if the anchor remains set and is slowly but steadily dragging.

4. Laser rangefinder/radar.

If you have enough eyes on board it is worth using all these methods to monitor your position and movement backwards as you set the anchor. There are times when some methods do not work (you cannot use transits in poor visibility for example) so it is worth becoming familiar with all the options.

If I had to pick one method it would be transits.
With good transits you can pick very small movements, much less than the inherent error in GPS.

Here is an example. I have just taken these photos of the transit I would use if anchoring here. I have simulated the anchor moving backwards by walking back from the cockpit.
The movement between the two photos is only about 3m (10 feet)

The transit is the position of the telegraph pole in relation to building. Notice the telegraph pole appears to move forward in relation to building structures as we move back. Even with this small distance there is a dramatic change. In practice you can reliably pick about half this distance.

You do need to aware that prop walk slightly complicates the picture. If you pick transits a long way it only has a minor effect.





This is the view walking 3m back from the cockpit. Notice how the telegraph pole has moved forward:

noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2014, 06:35   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,487
Re: You are setting your anchors badly and then blaming the anchors

I completely understand you and I'm sure you are a very considerate sailor but there are some real bone heads here in the Med. I always ask where the hook is and how much chain he has out and I will then drop behind him insuring we both have proper swing room. If it starts to blow like hell in the middle of the nite I want to have the option of heading to open water and it would be almost impossible to do if someone is on top of you. This place has some of the most inconsiderate or poorly educated sailors of anyplace I have ever sailed, its like if you go to a parking lot and its full so you park on top of someone else and figure thats OK. Its almost as bad as the bunch of loser cruisers in Mexico that anchor in 10 feet of water and put out 150-200 feet of chain and take up the space of a couple of boats. Sorry you caught me on a subject that I am overly sensitive about...
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2014, 06:43   #15
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The boat: Cowes (Winter), Above 60N (Summer); me: somewhere in the air!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 23,104
Re: You are setting your anchors badly and then blaming the anchors

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I completely understand you and I'm sure you are a very considerate sailor but there are some real bone heads here in the Med. I always ask where the hook is and how much chain he has out and I will then drop behind him insuring we both have proper swing room. If it starts to blow like hell in the middle of the nite I want to have the option of heading to open water and it would be almost impossible to do if someone is on top of you. This place has some of the most inconsiderate or poorly educated sailors of anyplace I have ever sailed, its like if you go to a parking lot and its full so you park on top of someone else and figure thats OK. Its almost as bad as the bunch of loser cruisers in Mexico that anchor in 10 feet of water and put out 150-200 feet of chain and take up the space of a couple of boats. Sorry you caught me on a subject that I am overly sensitive about...
Hah, hah, I understand

One strange thing I've notice, incidentally, is that Europeans are usually offended when you ask them how much scope they have out. I've never understood why they don't understand the reason for this question. It is a fairly usual thing in the U.S. to ask this and the reason should be obvious -- so that you can judge where is anchor is, and where he will swing.

In the U.S., the great majority of people will be anchoring on 6:1 more or less, except for the odd guy like the ones you mention who are on 20:1 for no good reason. But in Europe, they taught that 4:1 or even 3:1 is plenty -- this was traditional learning, and very many UK cruisers still use these kinds of scopes, so you really want to know. Nevertheless, I have learned not to ask, because without exception everyone I've asked that question of has assumed that I am questioning their anchoring ability and has been offended

I do agree with you about anchoring in the Med -- frequently overcrowded anchorages, frequent chaos, high prevalence of charter boats with inexperienced crews. It really is a nightmare for anchoring in many parts of the Med.
__________________

Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anchor

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale: Anchors , Anchors and More Anchors MermaidLil Classifieds Archive 11 19-01-2012 10:28
Posting Allowed, then Not, then Again ? Target9000 Forum Tech Support & Site Help 2 22-10-2011 10:51
Blaming 'The Wife' Livia Families, Kids and Pets Afloat 53 26-06-2010 14:08
How Badly Do You Really Need Bottom Paint? off-the-grid Construction, Maintenance & Refit 24 17-10-2009 09:26



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 18:26.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.