Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-05-2018, 05:58   #1
Registered User
 
SVRocinante's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Where ever the wind blows - Currently Cuttyhunk, MA
Boat: Hanse, 400e - 40ft
Posts: 250
Yep - we dragged!

We’ve been anchored in San Domingo Creek, MD for almost 2 weeks now. Winds have been relatively light, never really got above the high teens, but we were holding well... all chain, good scope (7:1) snubber, etc.

Last night we got hit by a severe thunderstorm - sustained high 20s with gusts into the 40s & 60s. I certainly did not expect to drag as we did... while not life threatening, we could have had serious damage to our vessel.

Heck, I think we might have even pulled out completely & reset. Fortunately we did not hit anything BUT are now substantially further south & east of our original position waiting for high tide this afternoon to get back to deeper water.

I won’t even mention anchor brand at this time, other than to say it’s a new generation anchor; not really looking to debate which anchor is “better”, we rode out a tropical storm for 2 days using our old CQR in the Long Island sound & didn’t move an inch.

At the moment, my best guess as to why we dragged is that the sudden and extreme change in wind speed & direction pulled the anchor out - we had been lying with our transom pointing north all day and the storm blew in from the north.

So, here is the obvious question;

What could I have done differently?

Is the holding such in this area that this was to be expected under those conditions and I simply lacked local knowledge? Active captain reports “excellent” holding (we’re anchored by anchorage #4 on their map)

As you can imagine, it was not fun standing at the helm, less than 40ft from the shore under those conditions for close to an hour with the engine running hoping the anchor would continue to hold. To say the least, I’d rather avoid doing so again the future!

Please do not hesitate to blame me. I am, after all, the person responsible for my vesssel & those aboard it, but please be specific.

As always, any & all thoughts, opinions, comments are greatly appreciated!
__________________

__________________
Carlos & Maria
S/V Rocinante
SVRocinante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-05-2018, 06:13   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Kansas
Boat: FP Salina 48, Hobie 33
Posts: 231
Re: Yep - we dragged!

I would say that virtually any anchor is capable of dragging. It all depends on the bottom composition. Each anchor has it's sweet spot. I don't know what the bottom is like where you are, but in a mud bottom, you can't beat a Fortress. I bought a Mantus because it will cut through sea grass in the Bahamas. It all comes down to the right tool for the job, and knowing the limitations of the tools you have to work with.
__________________

Tornadosailing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-05-2018, 06:17   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Abaco, Bahamas/ Western NC
Boat: Nothing large at the moment
Posts: 864
Re: Yep - we dragged!

Many of the creeks in Md. have no bottom, the water just get thicker as you go deeper!
Not a lot that can be don unless you have a crazy heavy anchor.
Tingum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-05-2018, 06:21   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Hunnter Legend 37.5
Posts: 258
Re: Yep - we dragged!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVRocinante View Post
We’ve been anchored in San Domingo Creek, MD for almost 2 weeks now. Winds have been relatively light, never really got above the high teens, but we were holding well... all chain, good scope (7:1) snubber, etc.

Last night we got hit by a severe thunderstorm - sustained high 20s with gusts into the 40s & 60s. I certainly did not expect to drag as we did... while not life threatening, we could have had serious damage to our vessel.

Heck, I think we might have even pulled out completely & reset. Fortunately we did not hit anything BUT are now substantially further south & east of our original position waiting for high tide this afternoon to get back to deeper water.

I won’t even mention anchor brand at this time, other than to say it’s a new generation anchor; not really looking to debate which anchor is “better”, we rode out a tropical storm for 2 days using our old CQR in the Long Island sound & didn’t move an inch.

At the moment, my best guess as to why we dragged is that the sudden and extreme change in wind speed & direction pulled the anchor out - we had been lying with our transom pointing north all day and the storm blew in from the north.

So, here is the obvious question;

What could I have done differently?

Is the holding such in this area that this was to be expected under those conditions and I simply lacked local knowledge? Active captain reports “excellent” holding (we’re anchored by anchorage #4 on their map)

As you can imagine, it was not fun standing at the helm, less than 40ft from the shore under those conditions for close to an hour with the engine running hoping the anchor would continue to hold. To say the least, I’d rather avoid doing so again the future!

Please do not hesitate to blame me. I am, after all, the person responsible for my vesssel & those aboard it, but please be specific.

As always, any & all thoughts, opinions, comments are greatly appreciated!
The holding in San Domingo Creek should be great, with a mostly muddy bottom. I would suggest adding a longer snubber, and perhaps change to a Danforth.

I use 25 feet of chain connected to a rope rode and a 48 pound Danforth. Over the past few years we have been seeing more of these microbursts in the Chesapeake. I suspect despite your snubber and scope, the shock loading probably pulled your anchor out.

Enjoy the micro brew, winery and Lyon distillery. Eva's is good, too!

Ben
bensolomon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-05-2018, 06:41   #5
Registered User
 
Bill O's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Boat: Bruce Bingham Andromeda 48
Posts: 283
Re: Yep - we dragged!

We've been up San Domingo and hit with a storm that produced 45-50kts with a 180 wind shift, but didn't drag. We draw 6.5' so it was somewhat exciting to go up the creek with shifting bars, etc. for this anchorage.

There isn't much room to swing in the creek, especially with lots of other boats closely anchored to you.

Don't see a #4 anchorage on AC, but a better anchorage in the creek maybe in the cove just N of R"6" on the eastern side. As you experienced, the storms seem to funnel the wind down the creek and this will offer some protection from the N.

Looks like you may get more storms today.


Good luck.
Bill O.
__________________
Bill O.
KB3YMH
http://phoenixketch.blogspot.com/
Bill O is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-05-2018, 06:42   #6
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 22,042
Images: 2
pirate Re: Yep - we dragged!

Sounds like a close call.. well done in staying safe..
Now I've never been sure of the much quoted 'scope' principle..
I work to an older more basic measurement.. 3.5 x boat length plus depth at high water if I am anchoring somewhere for a while.. obviously if just for a few hours food and drink then go, I'm more relaxed and let out just sufficient for the prevailing weather conditions at the time.
Now I cop for a lot of grief on here because of this long stay mantra of mine but.. I just looked up a few sites and found this on Sailboatcruising.com...

The Anchor Chain Length for Ultimate Security...
Here's what I recommend:
Lay out the 4:1 scope plus twice the boat length - providing of course there's room to do so, and you've got enough chain in your anchor locker.
Now you can rest easy in your bunk or make a trip ashore, confident in the knowledge that you've done the best you can for the security of your anchored boat.
For a boat 12m long overall with bow height of 1m above the waterline, the recommended anchor chain length to be deployed is...
Water Depth Effective Depth 4:1(minimum) Plus LOA x 2 Chain(ideal)
...... 3m..................... 4m..................16m..............24m.......... .. 40m......

So.. up your nose all the righteous ranter's here who say I lay out to much.. obviously most of them are day trippers who rarely spend very long on the hook and run to the marina once it exceeds 10kts..
Funny how the above seems to match my 3.5 + depth nearly exactly..
I also am ready to lay out more chain should the wind increases enough to start me surging/jerking..

__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-05-2018, 06:43   #7
Registered User
 
danielamartindm's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
Boat: Leopard 39
Posts: 676
Re: Yep - we dragged!

Thunderstorms and microbursts are wild cards that can unseat any anchor- even if you dove on it and observed the set before turning in. I applaud your attitude and desire to learn. I know nothing of that anchorage, and hope that others here who do will be able to offer suggestions. A Fortess holds best in mud. Fair winds, skipper.
danielamartindm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-05-2018, 06:53   #8
Registered User
 
SVRocinante's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Where ever the wind blows - Currently Cuttyhunk, MA
Boat: Hanse, 400e - 40ft
Posts: 250
Re: Yep - we dragged!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornadosailing View Post
I would say that virtually any anchor is capable of dragging. It all depends on the bottom composition. Each anchor has it's sweet spot. I don't know what the bottom is like where you are, but in a mud bottom, you can't beat a Fortress. I bought a Mantus because it will cut through sea grass in the Bahamas. It all comes down to the right tool for the job, and knowing the limitations of the tools you have to work with.
Thanks Tornadosailing - I don’t have a Fortress, but do have a Danforth.
Might switch to that for the remainder of our time on the Chesapeake.
__________________
Carlos & Maria
S/V Rocinante
SVRocinante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-05-2018, 06:54   #9
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 18,113
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Yep - we dragged!

thunderstorms get 150 ft chain.
min 120. sometimes second anchor or a kellet, depending on area.
woke in zihuat one night with strange wind sensation.,,saw a t-boomer cell approaching and let out 30 more feet chain. was good. we stuck.
good luck figgering out your needs. each boat and area is different.
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-05-2018, 06:55   #10
Registered User
 
SVRocinante's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Where ever the wind blows - Currently Cuttyhunk, MA
Boat: Hanse, 400e - 40ft
Posts: 250
Re: Yep - we dragged!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tingum View Post
Many of the creeks in Md. have no bottom, the water just get thicker as you go deeper!
Not a lot that can be don unless you have a crazy heavy anchor.
Lol! Yep, been in some of those creeks!
San Domingo doesn’t seem to be one of them... looks like reasonably thick stuff.
Not Long Island Sound thick, but not bad.
__________________
Carlos & Maria
S/V Rocinante
SVRocinante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-05-2018, 06:59   #11
Registered User
 
SVRocinante's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Where ever the wind blows - Currently Cuttyhunk, MA
Boat: Hanse, 400e - 40ft
Posts: 250
Re: Yep - we dragged!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bensolomon View Post
The holding in San Domingo Creek should be great, with a mostly muddy bottom. I would suggest adding a longer snubber, and perhaps change to a Danforth.

I use 25 feet of chain connected to a rope rode and a 48 pound Danforth. Over the past few years we have been seeing more of these microbursts in the Chesapeake. I suspect despite your snubber and scope, the shock loading probably pulled your anchor out.

Enjoy the micro brew, winery and Lyon distillery. Eva's is good, too!

Ben
Thank you Ben, just might switch over to my Danforth for our next few stops on the Chesapeake as we continue north.
__________________
Carlos & Maria
S/V Rocinante
SVRocinante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-05-2018, 07:05   #12
Registered User
 
SVRocinante's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Where ever the wind blows - Currently Cuttyhunk, MA
Boat: Hanse, 400e - 40ft
Posts: 250
Re: Yep - we dragged!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O View Post
We've been up San Domingo and hit with a storm that produced 45-50kts with a 180 wind shift, but didn't drag. We draw 6.5' so it was somewhat exciting to go up the creek with shifting bars, etc. for this anchorage.

There isn't much room to swing in the creek, especially with lots of other boats closely anchored to you.

Don't see a #4 anchorage on AC, but a better anchorage in the creek maybe in the cove just N of R"6" on the eastern side. As you experienced, the storms seem to funnel the wind down the creek and this will offer some protection from the N.

Looks like you may get more storms today.


Good luck.
Bill O.
Thanks Bill O.

We too draw 6.5 - may I ask what anchor you’ve used?
We have several onboard - CQR, Danforth, Delta & our current primary; Spade (all oversized )

Thanks again,
__________________
Carlos & Maria
S/V Rocinante
SVRocinante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-05-2018, 07:09   #13
Registered User
 
Suijin's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Annapolis MD; currently in New England
Boat: Valiant 40
Posts: 3,700
Re: Yep - we dragged!

The holding in Chesapeake creeks can vary widely in a given creek so you really should take AC reports with a grain of salt. Talk about fluffy mud...there is virtually no current, the silt run off from the eastern shore is very bad at some points, and it just piles up. As a general rule, the holding where a creek narrows from wider to narrower to wider tends to be poor holding, but it can be anywhere.

Also, Rocnas are known to occasionally break out during a dramatic windshift, in case that is what you were using...
Suijin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-05-2018, 07:13   #14
Registered User
 
SVRocinante's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Where ever the wind blows - Currently Cuttyhunk, MA
Boat: Hanse, 400e - 40ft
Posts: 250
Re: Yep - we dragged!

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Sounds like a close call.. well done in staying safe..
Now I've never been sure of the much quoted 'scope' principle..
I work to an older more basic measurement.. 3.5 x boat length plus depth at high water if I am anchoring somewhere for a while.. obviously if just for a few hours food and drink then go, I'm more relaxed and let out just sufficient for the prevailing weather conditions at the time.
Now I cop for a lot of grief on here because of this long stay mantra of mine but.. I just looked up a few sites and found this on Sailboatcruising.com...

The Anchor Chain Length for Ultimate Security...
Here's what I recommend:
Lay out the 4:1 scope plus twice the boat length - providing of course there's room to do so, and you've got enough chain in your anchor locker.
Now you can rest easy in your bunk or make a trip ashore, confident in the knowledge that you've done the best you can for the security of your anchored boat.
For a boat 12m long overall with bow height of 1m above the waterline, the recommended anchor chain length to be deployed is...
Water Depth Effective Depth 4:1(minimum) Plus LOA x 2 Chain(ideal)
...... 3m..................... 4m..................16m..............24m.......... .. 40m......

So.. up your nose all the righteous ranter's here who say I lay out to much.. obviously most of them are day trippers who rarely spend very long on the hook and run to the marina once it exceeds 10kts..
Funny how the above seems to match my 3.5 + depth nearly exactly..
I also am ready to lay out more chain should the wind increases enough to start me surging/jerking..

Thank you boatman61

I’m a fan of lots of scope as well and have plenty of chain; unfortunately, even my 7:1 is a lot for the swing room in this area. If scope ends up being the root cuase, then my only option is to not anchor here again... we’ll see.
__________________
Carlos & Maria
S/V Rocinante
SVRocinante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-05-2018, 07:15   #15
Registered User
 
SVRocinante's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Where ever the wind blows - Currently Cuttyhunk, MA
Boat: Hanse, 400e - 40ft
Posts: 250
Re: Yep - we dragged!

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielamartindm View Post
Thunderstorms and microbursts are wild cards that can unseat any anchor- even if you dove on it and observed the set before turning in. I applaud your attitude and desire to learn. I know nothing of that anchorage, and hope that others here who do will be able to offer suggestions. A Fortess holds best in mud. Fair winds, skipper.
Thank you danielmartindm

Yep, always learning!
I guess this is the first time I’ve had such a complete failure and being the control freak that I am, well, it has me spooked! Don’t like counting on luck!
__________________

__________________
Carlos & Maria
S/V Rocinante
SVRocinante is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Yep, another new member. Squid Bait Meets & Greets 2 17-07-2017 02:17
Yep.. Another new member Chookfoot Meets & Greets 1 07-09-2015 03:05
New Member From Egypt .. (Yep I Ride Camels ...) Vulkyn Meets & Greets 5 04-12-2013 13:19
Yep, Another One justwaiting Meets & Greets 4 26-06-2010 21:56
Procedures for Escaping Being Dragged Upon forsailbyowner Seamanship & Boat Handling 7 11-01-2010 10:09



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:16.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.