Windlass Corrosion

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

This?
Denso North America - Petrolatum Tapes

Sounds interesting, I have no experience with it

It's basically heavy duty gauze tape saturated with a lanolinish smelling thick grease. Done properly it protects the item it covers very nicely. However one void with communication to the outside world and it harbors corrosion.
I don't like it on structures that cannot be completely sealed, or with extremely irregular surfaces.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[exMaggieDrum]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

To keep the water off of the windlass, a lot of folks will take a section of moderate to large diameter PVC pipe, & affix it to the underside of the overhead, surrounding the hole for the hawsepipe. While others will use a section of engine exhaust hose or similar.

Also, with some windlasses, you can mount the drive unit (& capstan above it, on deck), just aft of your chain locker, & have a hawsepipe which is completely seperate from the windlass itself. But setup so that things still feed properly, via gravity, all on their own.

The benefit of this being, that the windlass is never exposed to any of the wet, & or humidity of the chain locker. And honestly, I can't figure why more boaters don't demand such types of windlasses, other than perhaps, they don't know any better.

I'm trying to picture how you would have a drive unit aft of the chain locker. Could you provide links or pictures of one or more of those? I've installed quite a few and worked on many others and I have never seen one like you describe. I have moved the control relays out of the chain locker but the drive units were all right next to the hawse pipe since the chain has to fall directly down that. Long shafts?

[exMaggieDrum]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I'd Alodine after cleaning and as Maggiedrum says coat it with a proper aluminum paint, I love corrosion-X, but think a product called Par-al-ketone is a better choice. It is very similar to Cosmoline for those familiar with it, and or very close to that type of waxy grease that regular steel cable like what Bulldozers use comes coated with.
Also LPS is a spray on waxy type of corrosion preventative, Corrosion-X looks like thin green oil and washes off more easily.
PAR-AL-KETONE from Aircraft Spruce
I've actually seen crankshafts and cylinders coated with Par al ketone sit outside in the weather for extended times and not have any rust at all.

I looked up the Par-al-ketone and it looks great. Not too expensive either. Only found aircraft parts/supplies vendors that carry it. My experience with air craft systems is that they have harder specs than even on boats. I hate Cosmoline. Makes a mess of everything. Alodine is what I would use to prime the housings (if they are aluminum).

[Cheechako]

It's a problem in closed damp lockers. Here's what I would do:
-Clean off that white corrosion that is accumulating, small brush, wd 40, or something similar.
-While you still can, remove those bolts one at a time and coat them with Lanolin, lanocote or similar. They are likely stainless into aluminum and eventually will be impossible remove, so do it now!
-Buy some CRC 5-56 spray. This is very similar to cosmolene used to preserve military replacement parts. Spray all over windlass parts with that. It wont go away and will protect it all.


The likelihood of painting properly and getting the paint to stay on that stuff is very low. Even your average aluminum Simpson Lawrence windlass painted white at the factory usually looks like hell in a few years.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum

I'm trying to picture how you would have a drive unit aft of the chain locker. Could you provide links or pictures of one or more of those? I've installed quite a few and worked on many others and I have never seen one like you describe. I have moved the control relays out of the chain locker but the drive units were all right next to the hawse pipe since the chain has to fall directly down that. Long shafts?

I gather that I was unclear. What I meant was that it makes sense to put the entire windlass aft of the chain locker. And then to have a seperate hawse, forward of the windlass, to allow the chain to fall into it's locker.
For such, Maxwell makes just such a windlass. And bits of their website not withstanding, they've made such types of windlasses, for several decades.
Here are a few of them - Vertical Windlass Range
Maxwell VW Series VW1500 Vertical Windlass

To mount them, if you want them right aft of the chain locker. You simply beef up the deck, just aft of the chain locker bulkhead. And then attach a stout angle bracket, connecting the bulkhead to the deck. Through which the windlass is bolted.

Or, you can mount the windlass much further aft if you like. Assuming that you lay things out so that the chain runs properly, of it's own accord, in both directions.
It's quite a handy way to pull some weight out of the bow, if your boat's deck layout will accomodate such.

[exMaggieDrum]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

I gather that I was unclear. What I meant was that it makes sense to put the entire windlass aft of the chain locker. And then to have a seperate hawse, forward of the windlass, to allow the chain to fall into it's locker.
For such, Maxwell makes just such a windlass. And bits of their website not withstanding, they've made such types of windlasses, for several decades.
Here are a few of them - Vertical Windlass Range
Maxwell VW Series VW1500 Vertical Windlass

To mount them, if you want them right aft of the chain locker. You simply beef up the deck, just aft of the chain locker bulkhead. And then attach a stout angle bracket, connecting the bulkhead to the deck. Through which the windlass is bolted.

Or, you can mount the windlass much further aft if you like. Assuming that you lay things out so that the chain runs properly, of it's own accord, in both directions.
It's quite a handy way to pull some weight out of the bow, if your boat's deck layout will accomodate such.

Thanks Uncivilized. I think I understand the installation method you are describing. It looks that the windlasses are not of a special design for this use, and, the chain fall (hawse pipe, channel) would have to angle forward to the chain locker. The windlass, if on deck, would still be exposed the same as if it were more forward, so that, in itself would not provide more protection for the windlass. If it were below deck and aft the windlass would take significant headroom from what ever compartment (in smaller sailboats usually the fore cabin) is just aft of the chain locker. If that were a sail locker that would not require cabinetry to cover it from eyesight but if it were in a cabin it would require significant cabinetry to enclose both the windlass and the angled hawse pipe. Is this correct?

If it were my boat I would simply install a hawse pipe that extends below the windlass in the chain locker to prevent direct water drips from going down the windlass. Mine is done like that for my Lighthouse 1501. It is still a very humid environment so there is always that issue. There would be some leveraged weight savings for however farther from the bow in proportion to the weight of the windlass though. There is the issue of chain entanglements since that the simplest is a straight fall to the chain locker which would help some. Chain piles are always a problem in either case.

There may be other installation ideas or methods I am not envisioning right now. If you have some pictures or drawings or discussion related to those, it would be welcome.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

To keep the water off of the windlass, a lot of folks will take a section of moderate to large diameter PVC pipe, & affix it to the underside of the overhead, surrounding the hole for the hawsepipe. While others will use a section of engine exhaust hose or similar.

Also, with some windlasses, you can mount the drive unit (& capstan above it, on deck), just aft of your chain locker, & have a hawsepipe which is completely seperate from the windlass itself. But setup so that things still feed properly, via gravity, all on their own.

The benefit of this being, that the windlass is never exposed to any of the wet, & or humidity of the chain locker. And honestly, I can't figure why more boaters don't demand such types of windlasses, other than perhaps, they don't know any better.

That's a good tip about the PVC pipe. I'm going to try something like that.


To the OP: this is a chronic problem with below deck mounted windlasses. They are absolutely not designed for marine conditions -- the motor housings are typically painted mild steel. And they are mounted right where sea water carried in with the chain splashes right onto it It's a stupid, cheap design, and incredible that 90% of cruising boats are made like this, including mine .

I hate this kind of windlass, mounted this way. My next boat will have an above-deck mounted, horizontal windlass.

Meanwhile, you just have to stay on top of the inevitable rust. Wirebrush, phosphoric acid, epoxy paint, every couple of years. Or don't bother and just replace the motor every time it rusts out Which is what I have been doing so far, but maybe this spring I'll wirebrush etc.

[a64pilot]

Dockhead,
Trust me, Black Bear it, and it won't rust. That is that Par-Al-Ketone, yes the motor is the worst, but at least it's easy to remove.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Dockhead,
Trust me, Black Bear it, and it won't rust. That is that Par-Al-Ketone, yes the motor is the worst, but at least it's easy to remove.

OK, thanks for the tip. If I have time this spring I'll try that. Cheers.

[Cheechako]

My impression is that under deck, in a wet locker, is worst for windlasses than being on deck. At least on deck things get fresh air and water. But of course vertical windlasses almost always have the mechanism below. With the proper precautions they should last a very long time.

[Hudson Force]

I know... I know,- I'm skipping the whole electric motor, but this one is still clean and bright at 25 years.



I often keep a Sunbrella cover capped over this Simpson-Lawrence, but even if it were electric, it's easier to stay aware of maintenance needs up on the deck.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum

It looks that the windlasses are not of a special design for this use, and, the chain fall (hawse pipe, channel) would have to angle forward to the chain locker.
Yes, you're correct, the chain channel would need to be lead forward & at a slightly downward angle, towards the hawse pipe.

With this setup, the chain runs; from the bow roller, back 180 degrees around the windlass, & then forward (across the deck) to the hawse pipe. Which, itself, is mounted overtop of the chain locker (in standard fashion).

The windlass, if on deck, would still be exposed the same as if it were more forward, so that, in itself would not provide more protection for the windlass.
With this style of windlass, yes, the capstan & wildcat are still on deck, & exposed to the weather. That's unavoidable, without completely redesigning a boat.
However, with these, if the deck's design allows for it, they can be mounted much further aft than is the case with a conveniontal windlass. Thus keeping their on deck components a bit drier.

But the KEY difference with this style of windlass, is that the motor & wiring isn't exposed at all, to the continual dampness (& occassional submersions), which eat away at windlasses that have their motors in the chainlocker. Because it's designed to be mounted so that it's motor is completely outside of said compartment.

If it were below deck and aft the windlass would take significant headroom from what ever compartment (in smaller sailboats usually the fore cabin) is just aft of the chain locker.
With this kind of windlass, yes, it's motor would be affixed to the underside of the deck, in what's likely to be the boat's living spaces. But it would only take up a small bit of room on the overhead. Most likely at the foot of the V-berth.

The amount of space "lost" would be on par with mounting a medium sized oil filter to the underside of the deck. So, IMO, not much of a loss. Especially at the foot of a bunk where there's typically 2'+ of room, vertically, anyway.

If that were a sail locker that would not require cabinetry to cover it from eyesight but if it were in a cabin it would require significant cabinetry to enclose both the windlass and the angled hawse pipe. Is this correct?
You wouldn't be building any cabinetry to conceal the hawse pipe, as the hawse pipe would still be located in the chain locker (in standard fashion).

If it were my boat I would simply install a hawse pipe that extends below the windlass in the chain locker to prevent direct water drips from going down the windlass.
Again, this windlass isn't mounted in the chain locker. Thus, there's no need to design or install any sort of drip/splash guard. So as to prevent the windlass motor from getting wet, via the chain entering the chain locker.

Mine is done like that for my Lighthouse 1501. It is still a very humid environment so there is always that issue. There would be some leveraged weight savings for however farther from the bow in proportion to the weight of the windlass though. There is the issue of chain entanglements since that the simplest is a straight fall to the chain locker which would help some. Chain piles are always a problem in either case.
With this setup, the chain still falls straight down, as the hawse pipe/hole is still in the same (traditional) place. So it's no more prone to entanglements than is any other setup.

And in fact, there may be less of a chance of such, given that there's more room for the rode in the chain locker. Because there's no windlass motor or vertically mounted splash guard or hawse pipe, taking up space in there.
Plus, since the chain needn't feed though any vertical "plumbing" in order to get out of the chain locker, then jams are less likely, again.

There may be other installation ideas or methods I am not envisioning right now. If you have some pictures or drawings or discussion related to those, it would be welcome.

Like I said, you mount one of these, AFT of the chain locker, behind said compartment's bulkhead. So as to avoid the issues of water doing nasty things to the windlass.
It is in a completely seperate part of the boat from the chain/rode.

I'm confused as to why it sounds like you're not grasping that this style of windlass is designed so that it can be mounted outside of the chain locker. Am I mis-reaing something when I state this?