Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 29-07-2008, 11:49   #121
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,525
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Baier View Post
Sean, I am with you. In 16 years of cruising in almost every type of conditions we have never had our CQR drag ONCE IT IS SET. We have had conditions where it was difficult to set such as heavy sea grass and thin layers of sand over a flat coral surface and I am not sure if any type of anchor would have done differently. We have been at anchor in 6 different hurricane conditions and the anchor held tight.
Definitely have had an instance or two where sea grass didn't allow an anchor to make it to the bottom, so I agree with that, Chuck.

My personal suspicion is that people are powering their anchors too heavily when setting, as well as being stingy on scope when they drag.

I had a 70-80' powerboat anchor inside my swinging circle the other day. When the boats approached each other, I asked, "are you comfortable?"

He said, "Yeah... how much scope do you have out?"

I replied, "180 ft, it gets to be well over 20 feet deep here at high tide."

His reply: "I have 90 ft, but it's all chain, so I'm good for the night. We are a little bit close, so I'll take in some more chain if you'd like."

I said: "Please don't... I wouldn't want you reducing your scope any further."



But that conversation led me to realize people often don't use enough scope.

The guy ended up moving, since he anchored nearly on top of my anchor, and the anchorage has a reversing current and wind play.
__________________

__________________
ssullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-07-2008, 14:28   #122
Marine Service Provider
 
GMac's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North of the Bridge, thankfully
Boat: R930
Posts: 1,659
G'day Auspicious, It appears I under estimated your research and thinking. I'm pleased I did and you didn't just grab the closest one type thing. It must have been the way I read your previous post.

There is a bit more to the Lloyds thing but your reasonably close. A Lloyds guy turns up at Mansons every 6 months (at Mansons expence) to check thier systems, welders, materials and so on. Huge numbers of Manson anchors turn up on boats in Class or Survey so being 'pre-approved' sort of thing saves a lot of time and expense further down the track.

Lewmars anchors are llyods HHP. Other companies have tried for the Lloyds thing but for reasons, I won't go into here, they weren't given it.

My understanding is Manson just 'can't be bothered' with replying to someones constant banging on about copying. They are too busy makeing anchors and as Supreme out sells it's close compeditors by quite a large margin, they don't really care. I believe there is alos a school of thought that due to said someones banging on and on and on Manson get many saying "I've well over someones continual dribble so I'm not buying a XX, give me one of yours instead". I have had well more than one person say the same thing to us. Basicaly Craig is selling lots of Rocnas but at the same time many Supremes. Strangley Manson think that's both good and rather funny. They have said a few things but why squish one of your better salesmen

At the end of the day both are top end performers so having one of either is a good thing.

And all anchors can drag. There are 10s of 1000's on CQR, Bruces and so on that just never had problems so they can't be bad either. Most tend to forget that if you focus on the anchor only you do increase the chances of problems. We often have boats with issues who want to swap anchors but when you look hard we often just tweak something else in the system and the problem is minimised or removed. I'd suggest those with out issues have thought more 'system' then 'just anchor', it makes a huge differance.

Anyway, I did like your reply Auspicious. It certianly shows you thought a lot more then I gleaned from your previous post. Well done.

Safe and anchor safe all.
__________________

__________________
GMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-07-2008, 17:27   #123
Senior Cruiser
 
Captain Bill's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On the boat
Boat: Endeavourcat Sailcat 44
Posts: 2,313
Can't comment on Ronca or Manson

I Don't have any experience with the spade anchors, but I do have some with the Delta and Bruce. I don't even attempt the bruce in grass or mud, but I do use it in Rocky bottoms. I find the Delta tends to slide around rocks instead of catching them. It will set eventually but when I've dived a Delta in a rocky bottom I didn't like what I saw. The bruce seems to have a better grasp of the bottom than does the small pointy end of the Delta. With the Delta, I've drug 3 times since I've owned it, each time in Mud. Sometimes in grass it's a bit slow to set, but It's never pulled out once it has, even in the Bahamas in strong currents shifting 180 degrees with the tide. A friend loaned me his Fortress 37 to try and I think I'm going to get one for the mud. I'm going to keep the Delta as my primary anchor. By the way I have a 44 Ft endeavour Sailcat.
__________________
Captain Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-07-2008, 17:43   #124
Registered User

Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Zealand
Boat: Trismus 37
Posts: 760
Can only recomend a grapnel anchor for a rocky bottom, we use one with 10mm tines that will straighten out when stuck and you have to pull real hard on the winch to free it, the tines can be rebent for the next rocky bottom. Wouldn't use overnight unless I was confident that the weather was settled. Cheap to make.
Re normal anchoring I use a Rocna, were I to replace it, I would buy would be a Manson Supreme, based both on price and performance. One of the big chandlers here in NZ has them on special and is throwing a manson danforth copy for free. good for kedge use.
__________________
Steve Pope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2008, 08:25   #125
Registered User
 
Auspicious's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Boat: HR 40
Posts: 1,793
Send a message via Skype™ to Auspicious
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMac View Post
There is a bit more to the Lloyds thing but your reasonably close. A Lloyds guy turns up at Mansons every 6 months (at Mansons expence) to check thier systems, welders, materials and so on.
Interesting. I did not know about the re-inspection requirement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GMac View Post
Lewmars anchors are llyods HHP. Other companies have tried for the Lloyds thing but for reasons, I won't go into here, they weren't given it.
You're right, unsurprisingly. I don't know how I missed the fact that the Delta is LR HHP certified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GMac View Post
And all anchors can drag. There are 10s of 1000's on CQR, Bruces and so on that just never had problems so they can't be bad either. Most tend to forget that if you focus on the anchor only you do increase the chances of problems. We often have boats with issues who want to swap anchors but when you look hard we often just tweak something else in the system and the problem is minimised or removed. I'd suggest those with out issues have thought more 'system' then 'just anchor', it makes a huge differance.
All other things being equal, I do think the Spade, Rocna, and presumably Manson Supreme anchors are better than older designs. That does not mean that I think the older designs are bad, just that the newer ones are better.

A systems approach to ground tackle, matching the capacity of anchor, shackles, chain, rope (if any), snubbers, windlass, etc not only provides the best overall capability but delivers the best value for money in the process.

sail fast, dave
__________________
S/V Auspicious
AuspiciousWorks
Beware cut and paste sailors
Auspicious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2008, 14:56   #126
Marine Service Provider
 
GMac's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North of the Bridge, thankfully
Boat: R930
Posts: 1,659
There you go again Dave, showing good thoughts, logic and common sense. I did read that posts of your very wrong by the looks. Maybe I am a silly more often that I think I am
__________________
GMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2008, 10:16   #127
Registered User
 
Auspicious's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Boat: HR 40
Posts: 1,793
Send a message via Skype™ to Auspicious
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMac View Post
I did read that posts of your very wrong by the looks.
Grant, can you translate that into American English? I'm confused.

sail fast, dave
__________________
S/V Auspicious
AuspiciousWorks
Beware cut and paste sailors
Auspicious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2008, 13:11   #128
Marine Service Provider
 
GMac's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North of the Bridge, thankfully
Boat: R930
Posts: 1,659
Easy Dave, 'It appears I did not read your post right'

I think that's what I said, that bit that has you confused is a shocker. Must proof read myself better
__________________
GMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2008, 15:55   #129
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Lancashire, UK
Boat: Hunter Channel 31 - Strider
Posts: 18
"My personal suspicion is that people are powering their anchors too heavily when setting, as well as being stingy on scope when they drag."

I agree with this. I use a Delta and am generally satisfied with its all round performance. A friend with the identical anchor is critical of it, saying that it's aptly named as a plough anchor because all it does is plough a furrow across the sea bed. I believe this is because he is too ready to go hard astern to "dig it in". In soft powdery sand or liquid treacly mud this is no good. Just use the strength of the tide or gentle nudges in astern to work the anchor deeper into a more solid substrate. Don't give it the full astern test too soon.

I've no experience of the more recent designs which are the main subject of this thread - I think the Delta is a great improvement on the CQR.
__________________
JimC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2008, 17:46   #130
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: seattle
Boat: Devlin 48 Moon River,j/100 BJ
Posts: 586
Well fellas and gals your anchoring stories are great but they are pretty much all hearsay and not hard or even soft statistical evaluation of anchor types. The closest thing we have to some meaty information all be it incomplete is the type of testing practical sailor and other third party groups have done. To date there appears to be no one anchor that will serve under all conditions. A few have good all around performance but even then a second anchor especially in unsettled conditions is worth the effort of deployment. Some individuals have learned to deploy tandem anchors and claim good success maybe practical sailor will add this to there testing program?
__________________
eyschulman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2008, 16:03   #131
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 5
Anchor setting

JimC,

Please explain "powering their anchors too heavily when setting"
__________________
BestRevenge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2008, 16:11   #132
Registered User

Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Zealand
Boat: Trismus 37
Posts: 760
I think Jim means powering back astern after laying the anchor to help it set. I have found with my Rocna 20 that you don't want to do this to vigorously as the anchor bites immediately and could damage the winch or deck as the boat stops moving.
With my previous anchors (french copy of the CQR) I could power astern and the anchor would occasionally bite quickly, but generally it was better to let it lie a while before gingerly moving astern to get a good set. Touch wood, I've never dragged the Rocna. Definitely dragged the CQR copies many times.
__________________
Steve Pope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2008, 00:09   #133
Marine Service Provider
 
GMac's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North of the Bridge, thankfully
Boat: R930
Posts: 1,659
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyschulman View Post
The closest thing we have to some meaty information all be it incomplete is the type of testing practical sailor and other third party groups have done.
Sorry, I disagree. My job is anchors and to date I have not seen one anchor test that isn't flawed in one way or another. That includes our own so far but then we test for 'parts' of the equation rather than the whole shabang in one go. You just can't test an anchor in one afternoon, no way in hell is that possible.

The new gen designs will always get higher numbers in tests that are usually seen where they chuck and load up in a very short time frame. But give a CQR time to settle then load it up and it's numbers will be higher. I doubt they'll every reach the new gen loads but if you set a pile of anchors and then leave them for 2 days before loading them the numbers will be different.

For real world meaty information you need lots of people in lots of different boats in lots of different places with lots of different rodes. That's my I'm a nosey bastard and ask everyone I see.

Quote:
To date there appears to be no one anchor that will serve under all conditions.
Quite correct, there are a couple that come close though.

Quote:
Some individuals have learned to deploy tandem anchors and claim good success
And yet many others set up one really well and never have to use 2.

Horses for courses.

Re the power setting - Yeap, it can be not the best thing. As the anchor is setting and you power back you are sort of liquefying the sand, muddy etc seabed and the anchor can slide through easy. Set it a bit and leave it. If you want more give it a small nudge a bit later after everything has settled.

I haven't power set an anchor for many many years, work things excluded. Chuck it over, let the wind/tide lay us back until I feel the bite, fix off rode, get beer, job done. Never had a problem. Again horses for courses.

New Gen designs Mark 3 are about to hit the waters. One is really interesting. Massive loads and nearly 1/2 the weight of the current new ones. Steel but due to smart thinking in the design not much above alloy weights.
__________________
GMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2008, 08:53   #134
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMac View Post
......New Gen designs Mark 3 are about to hit the waters. One is really interesting. Massive loads and nearly 1/2 the weight of the current new ones. Steel but due to smart thinking in the design not much above alloy weights.
Oh goody, a whole new generation of anchor arguments
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2008, 09:06   #135
Senior Cruiser
 
Talbot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Brighton, UK
Boat: Privilege 37
Posts: 3,579
Images: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMac View Post
New Gen designs Mark 3 are about to hit the waters. One is really interesting. Massive loads and nearly 1/2 the weight of the current new ones. Steel but due to smart thinking in the design not much above alloy weights.
I hope that you will give us further details on this one as soon as you can. It will be particularly interesting in how it fits to bow rollers etc.

I/2 the weight will certainly interest cat owners
__________________

__________________
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors - and miss."
Robert A Heinlein
Talbot is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anchor, rocna

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Spade Anchor Unsafe - Remedy ? GordMay Health, Safety & Related Gear 37 04-04-2009 01:19
CQR Anchors ssullivan Anchoring & Mooring 79 12-12-2006 07:43
xyz anchor rated "best" by Practal Sailor for mud Ram Health, Safety & Related Gear 8 23-04-2006 21:26
Anchor Spring Lines GordMay Liveaboard's Forum 3 15-11-2003 14:04



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:39.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.