Why Are Next-Gen Anchors Considered 'Better' ?

[sildene]

Would it be inappropriate to invite João (Ancora Latina) to consider sending a Raya anchor to Maine Sail for a comparative beach test.

I, for one, am quite interested in a hoopless anchor in the new style (thin, sharp, edges that grab and cut in more easily that the blunt CQR edges), and the Raya may be a good candidate.

Maine Sail, I hope this suggestion is not inappropriate towards you, either (apologies, if it is).

If there is a US distributor, shipping the "Tempest" version of the Raya (flat pack when dismantled) is probably most economical, since it is otherwise identical to the 'fixed' version. If there is no US distributor, and the test anchor has to be shipped from South America, perhaps there would be enough interested members in this forum to contribute a few dollars (if we had, say, 20 members, perhaps $5 each could do it) towards the shipping costs.

Since this would give Raya good exposure to a well-targeted consumer community, perhaps shipping cost could be a good marketing investment for the manufacturer. I would think it likely that, if the anchor performed well, there would be keen buyers of the test anchor in the US so it would not need to be sent back.

Once again, I am not trying to pressure João here - just a suggestion. In the absense of magazine test reports, this is potentially an opportunity for Raya to have its anchor evaluated, effectively independently, quickly and for little outlay.

Martin

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by sildene

Would it be inappropriate to invite João (Ancora Latina) to consider sending a Raya anchor to Maine Sail for a comparative beach test.

I, for one, am quite interested in a hoopless anchor in the new style (thin, sharp, edges that grab and cut in more easily that the blunt CQR edges), and the Raya may be a good candidate.

Maine Sail, I hope this suggestion is not inappropriate towards you, either (apologies, if it is).

If there is a US distributor, shipping the "Tempest" version of the Raya (flat pack when dismantled) is probably most economical, since it is otherwise identical to the 'fixed' version. If there is no US distributor, and the test anchor has to be shipped from South America, perhaps there would be enough interested members in this forum to contribute a few dollars (if we had, say, 20 members, perhaps $5 each could do it) towards the shipping costs.

Since this would give Raya good exposure to a well-targeted consumer community, perhaps shipping cost could be a good marketing investment for the manufacturer. I would think it likely that, if the anchor performed well, there would be keen buyers of the test anchor in the US so it would not need to be sent back.

Once again, I am not trying to pressure João here - just a suggestion. In the absense of magazine test reports, this is potentially an opportunity for Raya to have its anchor evaluated, effectively independently, quickly and for little outlay.

Martin

Martin,

Just so you know, I, in other posts to AnchoraLatina have asked that exact question for my own trial. I had posted a lack of trust in my Delta in a local, not unusual situation and if I had a Raya to test and it worked then I would pay for it and also offer testimonial. What a seller would want (I thought) is what you say. Get some out there so they are seen etc. The answer was;

NO!

So, I will more than likely plunk for a Rocna before long.

I am sure that MainSail can do that test much better than myself though. He thinks he sucks at video.................

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by lancelot9898

Hey Maine Sail,

Thanks for the video. A couple of comments about the video which may or may not be germine to the CQR's poor performance. One being that the pull is horizonal vs in real life there will be more of a vertical component present. The argument can be made however that the horizonal pull allows the anchor to dig in better, but still that is just an observation on my part pro or con. The other observation is that when anchored the boat will move from starboard to port causing the anchor to pivot about its hinge in the case of the CQR. I would suspect that maybe moveing the direction of pull from side to side will set that thing? I too have switched to the Manson Supreme type anchor replacing the CQR, but for many years that CQR has held put in some adverse wind conditions. In soft mud there is a problem with setting, but if it can be set then even the good old CQR holds and maybe will do better with wind shifts that the Manson due to the hinge. Just some random thoughts.

Actually in reality, with any sort of scope, the chain still drags on the bottom. I have physically witnessed this while diving. The other videos I have done on intertidal areas, Spade & Manson Supreme, were done at 7:1 and the chain still stays dragging along the bottom. In those videos the amount of chain I used was well short of what most any cruiser has on board too and on the order of 12-15 feet.

You need to remember that until the anchor even begins to penetrate there is very little resistance and certainly not enough to lift 30+ feet of chain of the sea bed and raise the shank even at a 4:1 let alone more scope. I don't know too many folks who have had good long term success with setting CQR's at 4:1 or less. The CQR never even bit in enough to even tighten the chain.

The technique I used to use on a hard bottom was to lower the anchor slowly while moving backwards in an attempt to get it to set down in a vertical orientation so the shank never flopped over. This would usually dig the tip in but it sometimes required multiple tries to get it to land just right and vertically and bite. Once it bit it was a fast game of balance in giving it enough scope to not pull up vertically and rip it back out but enough to continue pulling it into the bottom.

CQR's work, I used one for many years, but they can be a royal PITA to coax a set out of on a difficult bottom. Good mud holding not so much.Sail Magazine showed this, despite the fact that their technique was flawed. I saw similar findings on a hard intertidal bottom only because I wanted to see how it behaved for myself.

We should remember this is only a hard bottom simulation. If you anchor in soft mud this would not be how a CQR would act. In mud mine used to set quite often on the first try.

That video was my fifth drag of about 60+feet on hard sand with my 35 pound CQR and it refused to punch in each time. In this same location the Manson Supreme, aluminum Spade, steel Spade and the Rocna all dug in almost immediately.

Perhaps someone who's has a good handle on technique with CQR's can explain how and what technique to use on a hard bottom? I know I tried lots over the years, some with more success than others. I would also like to know the technique the boat should use at 2:00 am on a wind or tide shift when the anchor rolls out and refuses to reset. I ask because this exact scenario happened to us well before GPS anchor alarms. Good setting characteristics can be very handy in areas with lots of tidal shifts..

Typical anchoring cookie trails up here:

[s/v Jedi]

This is what you'll see in Bahia Gairaca, Colombia. Continues change in wind direction and williwaws ;-)

ciao!
Nick.

[sailingharry]

OP here again!

Martin (Sildene) has an outstanding idea. MainSail does a more thorough job, with more detail and analysis, than many professional publications, and I might even include Practical Sailor in that. One problem these publications have, is that their staff obviously cannot be multi-field experts, and so their information is not always as technically complete as it should be. MainSail also has been doing this a long time, and so is building on a lot of experience. The most amazing part of his work is that I think he has a larger investment in this "research project" than the paid professionals! He certainly has a GREAT deal of "street cred" in the sailing community.

While Therapy might have made an honest pitch to AnchoraLatina, I'm not sure that his offer carried the credibility that would get their attention (and that is most certainly not meant as a slam -- I'm sure he is an honest person with the best of intentions, and with 2000+ posts he's not a no-name and he's miles ahead of me -- but, well, MainSail has captured the title of "Anchor Guru").

With regard to the "each of us chip in a bit" I've got bad news. I emailed AnchoraLatina on the delivered price for an anchor for my 34' Sabre in Maryland, and the price for a 27lb Raya 1000 was $873, $400 purchase and $473 shipping. Until they can get the product price competitive with the Manson Supreme and until they can get an effective US distribution network, well, the Supreme sure seems to be the "budget buy" if you are looking for a "upper shelf" (maybe not top shelf, but certainly upper shelf) anchor. I can't even recommend a Spade, even if it's better, because the delivered price is double the Supreme and I can't go look at one -- and the anecdotal record doesn't make the Spade "double" the quality. At just over $400 delivered from Defender, I can get a 35 lb Supreme (probably more effective than a 27lb Raya) and a 25lb Supreme (probably appropriate for my cruising needs, from following this discussion) is over a hundred less than that.

I must say that I have enjoyed this tirade I've unleashed. It's been a far more civil anchor discussion than most others, and my initial question has been at least addressed, if not actually definitively answered.

Harry

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

well, MainSail has captured the title of "Anchor Guru").

Please I am a guru of nothing. I am merely a boater like you. I help when I can and try and share my experiences when I can. Oh and yes I do have a lot invested in anchors but it is spread over nearly 30 years. I think my 35 CQR is almost 32 years old... Long ago paid for...

[YOGAO]

Now that we have had a surprisingly civilized discussion about anchors, a reminder that if you are looking for an anchor AND you are in the Annapolis area during the next 5 days (Thur - Mon), the boat show is a great place to pick one up.

Harry's post re: shipping reminded me of buying our Rocna at the show. West Marine had a great show price (I think it was over $100 off), but the anchor had to be shipped to me. As I am waiting to be shocked by the dear price for shipping, the manager says, "I don't know what to charge, how about $25?" --- SOLD! Here is a photo of the anchor after we first installed it in St. Augustine, FL



Fair Winds,
Mike

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

With regard to the "each of us chip in a bit" I've got bad news. I emailed AnchoraLatina on the delivered price for an anchor for my 34' Sabre in Maryland, and the price for a 27lb Raya 1000 was $873, $400 purchase and $473 shipping.

How about trying to track down (via the Internet) someone who has already bought one to try and test theirs? Or trying to contact a customer via the supplier........

..........might be cheaper to ship MAINE SAIL to the Anchor.....

[colemj]

We are anchored in Weems Creek North of Annapolis right now in 20kts gusts to 30kts. Two boats with CQRs have spent the past 5 hours setting, dragging, resetting, etc. Luckily, there is no room upwind of us...

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

How about trying to track down (via the Internet) someone who has already bought one to try and test theirs? Or trying to contact a customer via the supplier........

..........might be cheaper to ship MAINE SAIL to the Anchor.....

Guys I would want to pay for the anchor. This helps me evaluate it on it's performance not on the fact that I got it for free.

Sure, I got a slight discount from Suncoast when I bought my Rocna but it still cost me a lot more than when the opened up West Marine as a distributor. When you factor that in I over payed by a lot even though they discounted it perhaps 20% to get a few out there.

I have a commercial account with Hamilton where I bought my Manson Supreme too but I do prefer to buy it on my own.

Until the shipping from Brazil is not $475.00 I'll be waiting a while on a Raya. I can't understand that shipping quote because my wife and I regularly ship heavy items to Guatemala for 1/10 of that...

On the surface $400.00 seems a little pricey for a 27 pounder with no Lloyds certification but $475.00 for shipping is just plain ludicrous. I think I'll wait until they publish some independent tests or more than one person actually owns one and reports of success..

For example I can buy a 25 pound Manson Supreme, including shipping, from Port Supply for $245.48. A 27 pounder for $875.00 makes it one of the most expensive anchors made. Anchora Latina surely needs distribution, testing and a better deal with his shippers. Some independent certifications, maybe not Lloyds but another, would also help..

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

OP here again!




I must say that I have enjoyed this tirade I've unleashed. It's been a far more civil anchor discussion than most others, and my initial question has been at least addressed, if not actually definitively answered.

Harry

let us know what you get.

[Therapy]

P.S.

If any one at the Annapolis boat show comes across a Rocna 20 at a great price (my WM catalog says 658.00 ) to bring back to west central FL (or thereabouts) for me (or have them ship it for 25.00 ) I would appreciated it.

[YOGAO]

Originally Posted by Therapy

P.S.

If any one at the Annapolis boat show comes across a Rocna 20 at a great price (my WM catalog says 658.00 ) to bring back to west central FL (or thereabouts) for me (or have them ship it for 25.00 ) I would appreciated it.

Just send me your CC# and the little 3 numbers on the back! I guarantee you will get the anchor for a great, great price!

Thanks in advance,
Mike

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by YOGAO

Just send me your CC# and the little 3 numbers on the back! I guarantee you will get the anchor for a great, great price!

Thanks in advance,
Mike

Not to worry.

I am good for it.

P.S. If you find a really good deal you can call me.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

With all the threads on anchoring this week I thought it a good time to do another comparison. This time I took my 35 CQR and my 33 Rocna to a hard sand intertidal area to compare how they act while being set....

Now we are talking. I LOVE this video and I think it addresses the 'why are next gen ...' very well.

Great job, Maine Sail, THX!