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Old 02-10-2009, 13:25   #46
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Great posts and video Main Sail.I have observed the Rocna setting in the water and it behaves just as your video shows for the Manson Supreme (but if it starts the correct way around, as expected, it will set quicker in 1/2 a meter or so).So I think your land simulation is an accurate depiction of what is happening in the water.

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Old 02-10-2009, 13:25   #47
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Before you decide, it is also worth looking at the Raya. It has a larger surface area, and less weight than the other two. It also has an even better angle of attack. It certainly has my interest.
Get one and let me know.

Are there any tests of it I can look at?

I actually think it may be the best of them all.

I don't want to get one and find I don't like it or it won't fit as it is far away and little is known of their policies.

Got any more info? I have been referred to only one person thus far (3 times). One is not enough.

Remember my asking for one to use in my particular circumstance over there....you know.....4us.......hint, hint - A specific anchor for multihull.

If I was making and trying to get into a market I know one sure way is to get a few out there. My offer still stands to AL. What he does not know is that I will pay for it if it works. But who can trust someone on the internet, eh?

Maybe he will send one to MainSail?

Maybe MainSail will buy one and shoot a video of it.

Maybe it does not work that well.
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Old 02-10-2009, 13:30   #48
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Before you decide, it is also worth looking at the Raya. It has a larger surface area, and less weight than the other two. It also has an even better angle of attack. It certainly has my interest.
My only concern, and Alain/Joo have not answered it, is how does it perform on short scope with the shank attachment right at the very front of the anchor? Seems that on short scope it might just peel the tip right out with little resistance surface area in front of the shank.?

I have yet to see any independent testing of this anchor and would really like to see it and the web site still says under construction at this point.


Also keep in mind that this is about the third iteration of this design which started as the Oceane then became the Sword, or vice verse, and is now the Raya..

Sword: (image courtesy Sail World)


Oceane Anchor: (Photo courtesy blue water supplies)
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Old 02-10-2009, 13:39   #49
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My only concern, and Alain/Joo have not answered it, is how does it perform on short scope with the shank attachment right at the very front of the anchor? Seems that on short scope it might just peel the tip right out with little resistance surface area in front of the shank.?

I have yet to see any independent testing of this anchor and would really like to see it and the web site still says under construction at this point.


Also keep in mind that this is about the third iteration of this design which started as the Oceane then became the Sword, or vice verse, and is now the Raya..

Sword: (image courtesy Sail World)


Oceane Anchor: (Photo courtesy blue water supplies)
Thanks for that.

Interesting, as always.

Just let me know when the Rocna is on sale! The 20kg I think is oversize for my Gemini but consensus is to use that size.
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Old 02-10-2009, 22:37   #50
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Actually when you set with proper scope the weight of the chain does not really allow for "uprighting" of the anchor.
Actually, by change in "orientation" I did not expect the whole anchor to flip to an "upright" position, merely that the shank would lift off the ground to be parallel to the direction of rode pull; ie. the shank would end up parallel to the sea bottom as it is pulled by the rode, rather than continue to lie pointing downwards. Then, the anchor would remain on it's side, but the tip also won't be pointing downwards as much as it does in it's stationary position shown in the photo stills.

However, that is what I expect, not what I have seen. Your video trumps my 'mind experiment', and I take your point.

Maine Sail, thanks again for the time and effort you have taken to present the visuals - very informative.

Also, the point re. the cross-sectional differences between the anchors is well made and illustrated.

Martin
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Old 02-10-2009, 22:47   #51
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Roll Bars on some next-gen anchors

One good thing I have to say about the Spade, Sword and Raya versus the Manson and Rocna - they don't need a roll bar to flip over onto their 'correct' side.

Is there a "design reason" anyone is aware of as to why the Rocna and Manson could not also be made to work without the roll bar? (and a manufacturer's agent to-the-point answer would also be welcome).

Martin
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Old 02-10-2009, 23:02   #52
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Not a lot of anchor agents posting here any more. The son (I believe) of the Rocna inventor was posting on here for a while, but he was so rude and inflammatory that I believe he pushed quite a few over to the nearly identical (and less expensive) Manson supreme.
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Old 03-10-2009, 06:02   #53
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Quote:
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Is there a "design reason" anyone is aware of as to why the Rocna and Manson could not also be made to work without the roll bar? (and a manufacturer's agent to-the-point answer would also be welcome).
Martin

Although I have been following this thread, I didnt break in the conversation as the answers have been very well documented mostly the excellent comparative photos from Main-sail.

I didnt answer too the Main-sail personal attacks against the Raya, using WORD for WORD all the arguments developed by Craig Smith / Rocna The anti RAYA (or anti Joo) position of Main-sail is well known and I do not want to follow him into the TRAP.

Designing an anchor is not as simple as it may seems Look at various anchor clones, a very small design change can completely ruin a good design.

When designing an anchor, one problem to solve is the self righting characteristic of the anchor or lets say, the anchor may always position itself in the penetrating position. This question can be solved on different ways;
- One of them is the solution of the Fisherman anchor... to have in fact two anchors back to back then there is always on side in the penetration position. The drawback is the second part of the anchor not in use and the ratio efficiency/ anchor weight is not very good
- One other solution is the one used by Flat anchors (such as Danforth Fortress) The anchor will always position itself on one side or the other.


With asymmetrical anchors the self righting characteristic is a mix of design geometry and weight distribution.
With a ballasted tip (Delta Spade) the heavily ballasted tip will be enough to oblige the anchor to fall in the penetrating position
o With a non ballasted tip (Rocna Supreme) if you remove the Roll bar , these anchors will not always right themselves up in the penetrating position.

- One difficulty when designing the RAYA has been to find the right geometry to have the anchor righting itself automatically in the penetration position, but we succeed... and it is the only assymetrical anchor which has only two stable positions the right and the left side penetrating position.



Designing an anchor with a roll bar would have been easier, but suppressing the roll bar will give us two advantages:
1 we have a better ratio Blade surface area/ total anchor weight or lets say a equal total anchor weight we have more blade surface area (25% more that the Rocna 42% more that the Spade) and therefore a better holding
2 we dont have a Mud trap at the back of the anchor bringing a lot of mess on the foredeck when lifting the anchor
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Old 03-10-2009, 07:36   #54
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I'ld still like to see some independent anchor tests done to approximate storm conditions with wind shifts of 90 degrees and even some 180 degree shifts. I think the good old CQR might fair a lot better than some of the newer designs even though for the last two years I've been using a 45 lb Manson Supreme instead of the 35 lb CQR on my 37 ft Tayana. FWIW That 35 lb anchor held during a Cat 1 hurricane (Gloria) while anchored in a hurricane hole here in the Cheaspeake in 1985. Don't think that I'll ever stay aboard again.
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Old 03-10-2009, 07:47   #55
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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
My only concern, and Alain/Joo have not answered it, is how does it perform on short scope with the shank attachment right at the very front of the anchor? Seems that on short scope it might just peel the tip right out with little resistance surface area in front of the shank.?
It's possible I'm visualizing this wrong but I think you may have this backwards. Draw a picture of an anchor with a short lever arm (shank) and another with a long lever arm, then draw a line from the end, representing a 3:1 rode. It looks to me as though the longer shank would tend to "lever" the tip out of the bottom, whereas the shorter shank provides more of a straight-line pull.

Mike
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Old 03-10-2009, 07:59   #56
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Here's a crude drawing illustrating what I mean. Notice that the rode is pulling up on the long shank anchor whereas it is still pulling down on the short shank.
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Old 03-10-2009, 11:16   #57
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Originally Posted by Ancora Latina View Post

I didn’t answer too the Main-sail personal attacks against the Raya, using WORD for WORD all the arguments developed by Craig Smith / Rocna – The anti RAYA (or anti Joo) position of Main-sail is well known and I do not want to follow him into the TRAP.
Sorry I am trying to trap you. Secondly those are NOT Craig Smith's words those are my words.

I have asked you about short scope before on SailNet and it went unanswered by you. I also asked you to record a video so we could see how it sets, nothing. I have been waiting, and actually checking your site, for any independent testing, nothing.

As for the Alain/Joo comment I honestly don't know who I am talking to. Honestly! I asked you a very direct question over on SailNet, about your affiliation to or with Alain Poiraud, and you did not give me a simple yes or no answer. Becuase of this, I, not Craig Smith, will have to assume you are in some way affiliated with Alain until you definitively tell us publicly, yes or no. Seems rather simple.


I will ask it again:


Question:
Do you, or have you, in anyway know, speak to, consult with, design with, have any financial of familial ties or have any relations with Alain Poiraud the ex-owner of Spade anchors?

Is your product, the Raya, an evolution of, part of, or a continuation of the development of the Sword or Ocean anchors which Alain designed?
If not, can you explain why the Sword, Oceane and Raya have such striking similarities?



It is NOT a problem if you affiliated with Alain, he's a hell of an anchor designer and I own two Spades myself, and it might actually lend credibility to you to have him on your team.

I do find it a little deceiving the way you have skirted the issue and refused to give a simple yes or no answer to your affiliation with Alain.

I am in NO WAY anti-Raya. As I have said NUMEROUS times, in print, on forums, it just may be a better mouse trap. However, without any independent testing and the non-answers you've given about my short scope questions, which is an honest question I don't know the answer to, it is tough to have quantifiable evidence of the products actual performance.

If I see some independent evidence of performance and it performs as you've stated I will put my money where my mouth is and try one.

Please give us the straight scoop and please provide us with some testing, videos or anything that can help us make an informed decision about the Raya..
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Old 03-10-2009, 11:47   #58
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Quote:
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One good thing I have to say about the Spade, Sword and Raya versus the Manson and Rocna - they don't need a roll bar to flip over onto their 'correct' side.

Is there a "design reason" anyone is aware of as to why the Rocna and Manson could not also be made to work without the roll bar? (and a manufacturer's agent to-the-point answer would also be welcome).

Martin
On the Rocna, the reason for the roll bar is to both ensure that the anchor orients correctly and reduces the weight required in the tip. Less weight in the tip allows for more fluke surface area and (at least in theory) better holding power. Also less tip weight means the tip can be finer resulting in better penetration in weed/grass - again in theory, since the only time we have not set well is in heavy weed/grass.

The roll bar also could give you something to grab onto if the anchor is fouled and you are without a trip line.

Fair Winds,
Mike
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Old 03-10-2009, 11:52   #59
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Please give us the straight scoop and please provide us with some testing, videos or anything that can help us make an informed decision about the Raya..
You go girl....

MAINE Sail: Please tell us what your favorite anchor is. You have obviously tested and tried the best so which one do you like the best, above all others?
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Old 03-10-2009, 12:49   #60
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You go girl....

MAINE Sail: Please tell us what your favorite anchor is. You have obviously tested and tried the best so which one do you like the best, above all others?
I have honestly seen no performance difference between my Manson Supreme and my Rocna. Both have performed flawlessly. If I had seen a difference I would tell you. I tried both of them in known bad setting spots where I could not even coax a set out of my CQR's. They have both passed with flying colors.

The Rocna seems a tad beefier in construction but I don't personally feel it makes that much difference as both are very well built.

I don't however think either is the "ultimate" or "best" anchor and we will see better and newer designs come down the pike. I am always open to any better mouse trap. that comes along. The Raya looks interesting but I have yet to see anything data wise that would make me dig into my pocket just yet..

I still like my steel Spade because it breaks down and can be stowed. I also still use my Fortress as my dedicated stern anchor. The Bruce, CQR, Supermax and aluminum Spade I no longer use, I sold my Delta (was actually considerably better than my CQR's at initial set) and my Manson 25 is currently on loan.

I'd say I like the Manson & Rocna the best, they've given me the best performance, and then the steel Spade.

I do actually still like the original Bruce for an old gen but only two to three sises bigger than the manufacturer originally suggested. My Bruce 33 was a decent setter & re-setter but did drag on me in high winds twice. Fortunately both times it dug back in after a hundred yards or so but still left me uncomfortable considering I was already at a 10:1 with a kellet..

All anchors will work, for me it is the follow comfort points:

1) How many times do I need to try to get it set? It's a pain in the arse if it does not set first try and I have to do it again as I anchor solo about 85% of the time, even with guests on board. I have zero tolerance for an anchor that can't consistently set, and handle an 80% reverse thrust set check, on the first try.

2) How does it re-set? I also have zero tolerance for an anchor that won't stay set. This is why I only use my Fortress when I know it can't swing..

3) What is my personal comfort level with its holding abilities once set.
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