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Old 12-10-2009, 16:22   #151
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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Doubt it. Just that Lewmar makes theirs in huge amounts in China, while Manson and Rocna (and perhaps Spade) may be doing theirs locally (NZ?) where labour is more expensive. Then shipment costs, marketing ...

Anyway, the "Bruce" from Lewmar look like cheap knock-offs - have a look at any original Bruce and you will be shocked to see the difference.

b.
Actually, ROCNA is made in China also. They have not lowered their prices to reflect this either... not sure why anyone would pay MORE money for a CHINESE anchor?

From their web site;

Quote:
....Each Rocna begins life in one of our three manufacturing facilities worldwide, located in New Zealand, China, and Canada....
I will stick with my Manson Supreme, less expensive, Lloyds certified, and not made in China.
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Old 12-10-2009, 16:37   #152
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I'm quote happy with mr bruce original. Damn I'm sold old iremember when were excited about cqr. Given tecnique and ground conditions. I lke the Bruce if it's mud the fx will do I have a 60 lb cqr which I wish was a rocna and Luke 70 which I have never used. Either one though is a Fill in depending on conditions.
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Old 12-10-2009, 17:22   #153
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Evan, since you did a test for PS, how good is the Ray compared to the original Bruce?
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Old 12-10-2009, 17:23   #154
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my Rocna was manufactured in Canada.
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Old 12-10-2009, 19:05   #155
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my Rocna was manufactured in Canada.
I think the move of some production to China is recent, it is the ones being sold now that are suspect.
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Old 12-10-2009, 20:41   #156
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Since no one ever says anything to the contrary of the normal rantings...

Not all manufacturing in China is poor quality. It's just that most companies who turn to Chinese plants aren't willing to pay for quality, whether or not they're charging the consumer an arm and two old anchors. I doubt Rocna would accept two of their plants producing a high quality product, while one pumps out junk.

Don't bash it until you have a reason to. Go meet some Chinese people and tell me they can't do high quality work!

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Old 13-10-2009, 08:44   #157
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Why are next generation anchors better? Well in my case it is how my wife reacts when we are setting the anchor. I've used CQR's (chartering), Bruce (different times on different boats), Danforth (both primary and stern on different boats), but most recently and most often a Delta and very recently a Rocna (only a couple dozen times). I chose the Rocna over the Supreme because the shank design fit by bow better. The Rocna (55 lbs) is not smaller it is heavier than my Delta (45 lbs) but our new old boat is much larger (44 ft and 30K vice 38 ft and 18K). I used the Delta on the 44 footer since the boat came with several anchors but the working anchor was a 35lb CQR which my experience with was not good (although the first owner cruised with it and swore by it). I seriously thought about a Bruce clone but up sizing the Manson Ray with only a simple manual windless and the cost put me off. Since I sail and anchor in the Pacific Northwest I am rarely putting much of a load on my anchor and never drug the Delta once set even with other boats rafted to me (I've never seen a properly sizes Bruce drag either). We do get reasonable winds but our anchorages are normally so protected that there is little to no wave action. It was sometimes hard to set the Delta but once in it held well (the Bruce always seemed to set easily). So why do I like my new generation anchor? When we used to anchor after pulling on the anchor in reverse etc. My wife would always ask "Did we set?". Now she tells me from the helm "I felt it set" before we even start backing down on the anchor. So in my opinion confidence in the anchor you are using (know how to use) is priceless, and the new anchors in my experience set as well as the Bruce (in my area) and based on my limited experience (and looking at testing) hold as well or better than the old designs. Good enough for me to be happy with my decision.
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Old 13-10-2009, 09:15   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Doubt it. Just that Lewmar makes theirs in huge amounts in China, while Manson and Rocna (and perhaps Spade) may be doing theirs locally (NZ?) where labour is more expensive. Then shipment costs, marketing ...

Anyway, the "Bruce" from Lewmar look like cheap knock-offs - have a look at any original Bruce and you will be shocked to see the difference.

b.
There is a retailer downunder who is fond of citing his destructive testing whereby the Lemar Claw broke into multiple pieces when dropped on a sidewalk. Never heard of the Manson clone doing that, or for that matter any other anchor falling apart like that. FWIW.

The Lemar Claw is even significantly cheaper than their own Delta. I think there is a reason for that.

Plus, I've seen the Bruce in various sizes lined up against the Claw, and the Claw was not a very good copy at some sizes. Personally, that makes me nervous, but I'm goofy about anchoring gear.

I owned and used a 44# Claw. Came with the boat I now own. It worked fine. Still, I sold it. I just didn't have the confidence that I wanted.
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Old 13-10-2009, 11:06   #159
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The last I heard, the Spade was made in Tunisia. I'm not convinced that the place of manufacture is very important. There is good and bad stuff being made everywhere.

I just checked the US dealer for the Spade.

NavStore - Your Pro Marine Source - Product Catalog

My 66# Spade has transformed into a $1600 anchor. I paid $225 used.

My 44# Spade is now $1035. Who can afford this stuff?? I paid new something north of $400 with the WM new boat discount.

Good grief. This is nuts.

No wonder people buy the Lewmar Claw. In comparison, it's practically free.
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Old 14-10-2009, 08:42   #160
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Anchors are commodities. The more demand for "great" anchors, the more the prices will go up. Kinda like how root canals used to cost $800 when you had to visit the dentist three times. Now you only see him once, but he still charges you $800 or more! People pay it, so they'll charge it!

I'd like a Rocna, but I have a nice 45lb CQR, 35lb Delta, and a few big danforths. Good sailors have been using those anchors for a long time, so it seems foolish to say "They suck." just because some modern anchor designer showed some negative videos. Looks like I might have to have some skill to anchor...dammit! I thought there was a button on my chart plotter for that, too.

Fair leads
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Old 14-10-2009, 09:14   #161
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Anchors are commodities. The more demand for "great" anchors, the more the prices will go up.
With the roll bar anchors out, there is very little demand for the Spade. The number of retailers carrying the Spade have dropped considerably. For example, WM no longer carries it. Yet prices for the Spade have increased--a lot.

Further, there is the absolutely HUGE price difference between the Manson clone of the Bruce and the Lewmar clone of the Bruce, with the cheaper Lewmar obvious outselling the Manson by a wide margin. I've never even seen a Manson Ray. I see the Lewmar Claw by the dozens all the time.

I think the Spade is a difficult anchor to manufacture because it's relatively complex, and that explains its cost. For example, the shank is hollow. How cheap is that to make? In comparison, the Lewmar Claw is just cast steel, a significantly cheaper manufacturing process.

I think the price of these anchors is pretty much tied to materials and the cost to manufacture. I think every manufacturor would like to price compete with the Lewmar Claw, but flat out can't.
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Old 15-10-2009, 02:12   #162
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I think the price of these anchors is pretty much tied to materials and the cost to manufacture. I think every manufacturor would like to price compete with the Lewmar Claw, but flat out can't.
Yes, the Claw is cast, as the Bruce was. Casting can be good if the process quality control is good, or it can be shitty if the quality control is shitty.

The Ray is forged/fabricated. It's one of the reasons we bought it - it can't develop the same sort of cracks that a casting can develop (as our bruce did after regalvanizing).
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Old 15-10-2009, 09:37   #163
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The Ray is forged/fabricated. It's one of the reasons we bought it - it can't develop the same sort of cracks that a casting can develop (as our bruce did after regalvanizing).
Well, that pretty much explains the price differential.

Please keep us posted on your webstite about your opinions of the Ray as you get more experience with it. Some us actually read that stuff. TIA.
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Old 15-10-2009, 14:37   #164
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Smoke! Amazing read ...
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Old 22-10-2009, 23:44   #165
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The Manson Rays are common on superboats, not so smaller ones due to the price. Kicked my toe on a small 225kg Stainless one last month. Nice little bit of kit for the little 100fter

Delta has just had a MASSIVE price drop. Took longer than we expected but someone has finally realised people just aren't willing to pay and extra 50% just to have a Lewmar sticker on what is mass produced by many companies in China.

Claws (in their many various shapes and build quality) are very very fast going to the same place the Dodo is. To that we say bloody good as they never were as good as a genuine Bruce.

The level on human input (can be read as 'wages') that go into Spades, Ultras, Manson Rays is far far beyond what goes into a Supreme or Rocna even a Raya (this one has a bit more than the other 2 though) for example. Assuming all the steel costs the same the wages bill is what makes some of the difference.

Also Sea Tech and Fun (Spade), Anchoro Latina (very very sorry for the spelling butchery) who make Raya and Manson are the only 3 of the above who actually make their own anchors, the rest are just marketing companies, which does add a layer of cost.

And as a FYI - Some Rocnas are still built in NZ. We also can't quite figure out why the Chinese made ones cost more, that is a weird one and goes against the norm.
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