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Old 20-03-2008, 17:18   #16
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What sort of rode do you have behind your anchors maxingout, all chain or a combo? Sizes? Those anchors should have been fine I would have thought.[/quote]

G Mac

We used the same anchoring system with our 45 CQR, 60 CQR, and 70 lb Buegel. Virtually no difference in the ground tackle. Only the anchors were different.

We always used 200 feet of 3/8 inch high test chain, and a bridle consisting of two arms that were each twenty feet long. We used a lazy loop of chain to keep the bridle submerged.

Take a look at the following drawing:

ALMOST NEVER FAIL CATAMARAN ANCHORING SYSTEM WITH A BUEGEL ANCHOR*** Exit Only performed the first half of her circumnavigation

That's our anchoring system as we sailed around the world. It's what we use with every anchor on board.

The only component in our anchoring system that changed over time was our anchor. That's why I can say that for us, the Buegel anchor was the anchor that let us sleep at night.

I started this thread to find out from other people if they had an anchor that allowed them to sleep at night. On a cruise around the world, you anchor in every imaginable type of bottom and at every depth.

I am not interested in theory. I am not interested in manufacturer's claims. I am interested in what actually worked for people as they sailed around the world.
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Old 20-03-2008, 17:45   #17
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Dave, we had the exact same anchor system you do with the 45lb CQR. Not only that, but I use a long snubber (goes well underwater) and a "lazy loop."

Let me ask you something simple:

Can you describe your anchoring process, from the moment you start dropping the anchor to the moment you know you're "hooked in" and not going anywhere?

I think there might be a technique issue... I know the CQR required me to change my technique just a smidge for it to work as well as it did for me. I want to see if you are doing the same thing or not.

I found the CQR (with the anchor system we both had) to be very sensitive to one thing. I'm curious if you are doing it... please go along with this.

I'm very curious to see how your "three attempts" to set the 45lb CQR were performed.

Also, was the CQR the real deal, and not a knockoff?
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Old 20-03-2008, 18:07   #18
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Thanks Dave for providing a good primer on an anchoring system and technique. I do pretty much the same.


It is interesting that all the preferred anchors today (bugel/manson/rockna) have the similar feature of a “roll bar” sharp entry and wide spade.
Is that the key to quickly resetting after a wind/tide change?
I have 2 large CQR (originals) that fit flush, tight under the bowsprit, with an above deck roller.
I doubt if I could fit any 2 of the (bugel/manson/rockna) type side by side.
I would need to modify the bow roller and chalks to take the “roll bar”.
Has anyone seen an arrangement like mine that allows a (bugel/manson/rockna) type, that looks ok?

Nick

p.s. this photo was taken 3 days after we weathered a Typhoon in Looc Bay Philippines. No problem with the CQR, but I think the new ones are an improvement
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Old 20-03-2008, 18:15   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssullivan View Post
Dave, we had the exact same anchor system you do with the 45lb CQR.

Let me ask you something simple:

Can you describe your anchoring process, from the moment you start dropping the anchor to the moment you know you're "hooked in" and not going anywhere?

I think there might be a technique issue... I know the CQR required me to change my technique just a smidge for it to work as well as it did for me. I want to see if you are doing the same thing or not.

I found the CQR (with the anchor system we both had) to be very sensitive to
one thing. I'm curious if you are doing it... please go along with this.

I'm very curious to see how your "three attempts" to set the 45lb CQR were performed.

Also, was the CQR the real deal, and not a knockoff?

Good Questions.

It was the real deal CQR.

We tried every way possible in the world to get it to set. On the easy bottoms, like mud and soft sand, it set easily, but it plowed for us with our high windage. On harder bottoms, we had a three step process to set the anchor. We never dropped a pile of chain on the bottom. We ran the windlass in reverse letting the chain out at windlass speed, and when 1/3 of the chain was out, we backed down gently on it. Then we set out 1/3 more chain and backed down more firmly on it. Then we set out the last 1/3 of the chain, and again backed down on it until it stopped the boat. Then we took in some chain and made our lazy loop on the bridle. We would typically do this two or three times before we felt like it was securely set.

We freqently dove on the anchor to be sure it was buried.

When we were crusiing with German Yachts in New Caledonia, one of our German friends using the Buegel watched our anchoring ritual many times, and finally volunteered to dive on it to try to figure out why it wasn't working. (He never dove and watched the anchor setting in the bottom) It was a joke. They dropped their Bugels once. We dropped our CQR three times again and again. The Isle of Pines in New Caledonia tends to have a firm bottom as it is a coral island, and so it is a good place to test an anchor.

Getting the CQR to set was frequently a challenge, and if the wind shifted or current changed during the night, it couldn't be trusted to reset. Behind Fraser Island in Australia, the current shifts big time on the leeward side of the island, and there are huge currents at the Mary's river inlet. In these areas, a failed reset was an ever present possiblity.

The long and short of it is this. We tried everything and followed every piece of advice given by experienced mariners. We finally surrendered and went to the Buegel.

I met a writer for a German sailing magazine at a dock in Noumea, New Caledonia, and he had a sixty pound Buegel on his bow. I asked him why he had that particular anchor ( I didn't have a Buegel at the time). He said that his Privilige 45 catamaran had dragged his 60 pound CQR all over the place, and when he switched to a Buegel, his anchoring problems disappeared. That was the final staw that convinced me to give the Buegel a try. I wanted to sleep at night. I now have a Buegel, and I sleep at night.
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Old 20-03-2008, 18:56   #20
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Thanks for humoring me, Dave. I had a suspicion you were backing down on the CQR. I have no logical explaination for it, but I found that when I backed down on the CQR, it failed to grab on many occasions. Letting the natural forces of wind and current set it worked every time. Backing down on it didn't work approx 25% of the time.

This surprised the heck out of me, and I have no logical explaination for what I say, but every time I let the anchor set naturally (without engine power), it worked. Many times I used engine power for the initial set, it did not.

I don't want to derail the thread any more, but I'd be curious to see how people anchor using the CQR and other anchors. We had identical anchoring systems, except I was on a 45', 26,000lb mono, tugging from a single snubber.

I did just dump the chain out in a pile, but that's only because it was easier.

I basically dropped the CQR with enough chain to let it set (maybe 3x scope?), paying that out as fast as the boat drifted back from the anchor, then watched the chain pull taught. From there, I just dumped my entire scope on the bottom in a pile and drifted back until the 2nd tug on the chain. I then set the snubber and went to bed. I rarely used an engine to give it an extra tug. Using an engine at the very last point before the snubber was put on resulted in no drag, but using an engine on the initial set often caused a drag.

Interesting stuff. I have been dumping my Delta on this new boat overboard using those same techniques I have used with the CQR and haven't had a minute's problem with dragging either.

Grated, I'm not in 50ft of water on a seward facing slope. OUCH!! But... this technique hasn't failed me in a few years. Never a drag (knock on wood, since it's gusting to 30-35mph in a tight little anchorage in Miami right now... ha ha)

Again, thanks for playing along. I suspected it might have been the backing down on it, but wanted to hear that you backed down on it before I said something, to be sure.
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Old 20-03-2008, 18:58   #21
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PS: Of course, the windage on your cat is significantly higher than the windage on my old mono. Could also be a factor. But... the backing down caused drags on my mono as well.
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Old 20-03-2008, 19:16   #22
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I am with Dave on this one. Sure, you can make a CQR work just fine but there have been advancements in anchors since the CQR came out and the Buegel is one of them. Also the Manson, SPade and Rocna. After you use one of these newer breeds you will understand. Until then, enjoy what you have.

Technology advancement ALWAYS marches forward, even with somthing as simple as an anchor.

Also, Dave has gone around and lived on his boat for like 11 years, and that says alot about experience.
Live it, Learn it.

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Old 20-03-2008, 19:52   #23
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CQRs and like don't like being set at 'speed', actually even the new ones will not set sometimes if going too fast. Nice and slowly. Don't throw lots of Hp at it either. See the big launches lying back and throwing 1000hp at it wondering why they never stop.

I let the wind/tide lay me back on the anchor until I feel it bite then apply motor if I want, which I very rearly to as I don't have enough Hp in reverse to do anything anyway on the current boat.
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Old 20-03-2008, 20:12   #24
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Well...

Well, seeing as I own, and have used, all of the following anchors;

2 CQR's
2 Spades (one aluminum one steel)
2 Fortresses
1 Manson Supreme
1 Rocna
1 Supermax
1 Bruce
1 Delta

I can easily answer that question.

My Rocna!

My Manson Supreme performs virtually identically however so I should say my Rocna or my Manson Supreme to be fair. The Rocna is IMHO a better constructed anchor so it's the one I choose to use as my primary..

Ever seen four anchors held up by a yellow 10-12 gauge crimped butt connector??

You have now!!!
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Old 20-03-2008, 20:27   #25
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Holy steel bits Acoustic. You've got a better selection than I have and I don't have to pay for any of mine
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Old 20-03-2008, 20:48   #26
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Ok how about a critique on my anchoring technique

I have an original CQR with 200' of 3/8 BBB chain and can rarely get mine to set on the first try. Here's my technique. motor forward into the wind. Put engine in neutral when boat stops forward progress let go of enough scope so that the anchor touches the bottom. Then give a dash of reverse and back into neutral and let out chain as the boat drifts back till there is a 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 scope. Then hold the boat in neutral. If the anchor grabs we give a little revers and add more scope till the desired 5 to 1 is out. When all the scope is out we slowly advance the revs in reverse till we can see the anchor holds well under pressure. I like to see it hold for three minutes at about 1700 RPM's. Am I doing something wrong?
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Old 20-03-2008, 20:53   #27
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Ok how about a critique on my anchoring technique

I have an original CQR with 200' of 3/8 BBB chain and can rarely get mine to set on the first try. Here's my technique. motor forward into the wind. Put engine in neutral when boat stops forward progress let go of enough scope so that the anchor touches the bottom. Then give a dash of reverse and back into neutral and let out chain as the boat drifts back till there is a 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 scope. Then hold the boat in neutral. If the anchor grabs we give a little revers and add more scope till the desired 5 to 1 is out. When all the scope is out we slowly advance the revs in reverse till we can see the anchor holds well under pressure. I like to see it hold for three minutes at about 1700 RPM's. Am I doing something wrong?
CQR's like LOTS of scope to set and more often than not a little time to settle. Bump that up to 7:1 or 8:1, yes even with the chain, and you should have better luck. The CQR though is not a reliable setter so don't be frustrated it does not set on the first try. Also, I back down a 80% of max throttle, or full cruise rpm, in reverse until prop walk makes me swing too much. I don't know what your engine spins but for my 4 cyl diesel 1700 rpm's is not a whole hell of a lot of set power..
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Old 20-03-2008, 20:57   #28
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I am with Dave on this one. Sure, you can make a CQR work just fine but there have been advancements in anchors since the CQR came out and the Buegel is one of them. Also the Manson, SPade and Rocna. After you use one of these newer breeds you will understand. Until then, enjoy what you have.

Technology advancement ALWAYS marches forward, even with somthing as simple as an anchor.

Also, Dave has gone around and lived on his boat for like 11 years, and that says alot about experience.
Live it, Learn it.

Keegan
This post has kind of a funny feel to it. You're "with Dave?" Dave has been on his boat for "like 11 years?" It's not an argument. It's a discussion.

We're just talking about our experience with anchors and which ones allow you to sleep through the night. Dave's Bugel (sp) allows him to sleep, both my CQRs and Delta have allowed me to sleep, but only because I set them carefully without using power on that initial set. (as Gmac re-stated)

I mean it doesn't matter what anchor you use at all, so long as you know how to make it set so that you don't ever drag. With the CQR, this involves not using the motor to set it, which is likely what casued Dave's problem with the anchor, when reading his method of anchoring. It took me a few tries to figure that one out myself.

I still am wondering about that 11 yrs comment. I've been anchoring for 20 years in the North East USA and Caribbean. Does that somehow make my anchoring less "live it, learn it?" I'm sure Dave wouldn't post something so strange as a reply... Not sure why you did.
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Old 20-03-2008, 21:04   #29
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I cruise at around 2200 RPMs. The places where I was at (British Columbis coves) made it hard to get 8 to 1. I and the Admiral are at the point where we want to try something diffferent. The anchor and the chain are both old and rusty so were figuring on getting something new and something bigger. Maybe a ~60 lb rocna or Mason. We've never gunned the engine to test the breakout strength but I feel comfortable with the boat putting some strain on the anchor just so we know it is set well.
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Old 20-03-2008, 21:07   #30
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Ok how about a critique on my anchoring technique

I have an original CQR with 200' of 3/8 BBB chain and can rarely get mine to set on the first try. Here's my technique. motor forward into the wind. Put engine in neutral when boat stops forward progress let go of enough scope so that the anchor touches the bottom. Then give a dash of reverse and back into neutral and let out chain as the boat drifts back till there is a 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 scope. Then hold the boat in neutral. If the anchor grabs we give a little revers and add more scope till the desired 5 to 1 is out. When all the scope is out we slowly advance the revs in reverse till we can see the anchor holds well under pressure. I like to see it hold for three minutes at about 1700 RPM's. Am I doing something wrong?
My input is, try this:

Change your technique just a little bit...

Skip that initial "dash of reverse" and just let nature pull the boat back. Keep letting out the 4:1 or 5:1 scope, as you do now, and lock it off. Watch the chain become "bar tight" for a moment, then let off the rest of your scope (use plenty, as Acoustic says). Don't start putting it in reverse at this point. Just dump the whole scope right off, right there after your first tension on the chain. The boat will then drift back with the wind/current since you have all the scope out.

As the scope is used up by the drifting boat, you'll see the chain go "bar tight" again. You're now dug in. You can now give the engine some reverse if you like, but I find it's normally not needed. The 2nd tug on the chain sets the anchor all the way. Any increase in winds only sets it deeper after this. But applying power at the end of the anchoring procedure here is not an issue. Stick it in reverse and crank up to 1700 as you normally do, if you like.

In my experience, the CQR loves these little "tugs" rather than steady pressure put on by the engine. It's the reversing of the engine during setting that causes the CQR to drag.

Who knows... maybe it's because the CQR was invented not long after mechanical propulsion on boats??
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