What Type of Winch ?

[svcambria]

Ideal horizontal windlasses can be configured with gypsy on one side and cathead on the other, gypsy on the other side with cathead on the first side, or gypsy on both sides. Don't think they invented this idea, so check with Muir and see if they do that too.

Michael

[capt_douglas]

Hmm, I always thought it was anchor windlass, but I could be wrong.

Given the choice and all things being equal I'd go for a vertical windlass, properly installed. The big selling point for me on the vertical style as the chain is held on the capstain for about 180 degrees, as compared to about 90 on the horizontal. With the vertical, you lose a bit more interior space, gain some deck space, and most of the expensive bits are below deck.

You can configure a horizontal windlass for dual gypsys/capstains but I've seen a number of vertical double anchor setups as well. If the windlass is properly set up, the angle between the bow rollers may not be a problem. The general consensus is that with a vertical windlass, properly positioned and installed, the angle between the gypsy and the bow anchors is a compromise in efficiency but still does the job safely.

10mm chain weighs about 2.1kg/m

Given your ground tackle info it looks like the total weight of chain and anchor is about 250kg. Most windlass installations recommend a 3-4x safety factor so I'd be looking at a windlass that can handle 750-1000kg.

As for 12V operation, you need to do some research and see if the lifting capacity of the windlass, type of windlass, and windlass power requirements intersect. Most power situations are solved either by running long lengths of heavy duty cable (sized to keep the voltage drop at less than 3%) or installing a battery in the bow and smaller wire to charge that battery up.

The plus of the bow battery is that the expensive wire runs are much shorter. The downsides are that you've got more weight in the bow, you still need to run wires from the engine/genset to the battery in the bow, and the need for a bigger alternator and another regulator, and the need to run the engine/genset when using the windlass for any prolonged periods.

You're going to be using the windlass a lot so I suggest spending a bit of time pondering it. You might walk the docks and chat up folks with double anchors and electric windlasses to see what their decision process and experiences are.

[SvenG]

Originally Posted by capt_douglas

Given your ground tackle info it looks like the total weight of chain and anchor is about 250kg. Most windlass installations recommend a 3-4x safety factor so I'd be looking at a windlass that can handle 750-1000kg.

I just went through this calculation and convinced myself that you should take the scope into account. Unless you are anchoring with a 1:1 scope you will not be lifting the 250 kg all at once. If you are using 1:1 you don't need the safety factor. I'd assume a minimum of 3:1 scope and go from there, say 90 kg (or ~180 lbs for our imperial friends) which would mean 270-360 kg (~500-800 lbs). I am assuming that you are not using the windlass to pull the boat, only to lift the anchor and rode as the boat moves forward.



-Sven

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by capt_douglas

Hmm, I always thought it was anchor windlass, but I could be wrong.

I like proper terminology but I think it's also important to avoid being excessively pedantic with it. "Winch" is a generic term and in my experience the term "anchor winch" is widely used and accepted. It doesn't bother me, at least, FWIW.

Some sticklers point out that a vertical windlass needs to be called a "capstan" or a "capstan winch". I think that the idea of a "capstan" comes from the way the force is applied to the device, not how the device applies force to the anchor rode or whatever, with people or animals walking around in a circle hauling on the capstan bars. Surely a horizontal windlass can't be called a capstan. But "windlass" seems to be more generic -- the word comes from the method of applying force by winding -- and so I don't see anything oxymoronic in the term "vertical windlass", FWIW.

In fact, it doesn't really seem right to me to call my vertical windlass a "capstan" at all -- where are the capstan bars?

Others may have other opinions.

"Capstan
A machine employed in large vessels, principally for "heaving up or weighing " the anchor. It consists of a drum or barrel, revolving upon an upright spindle, and having holes cut in the upper part or drum head, to receive the ends of a series of horizontal levers, named capstan bars."

http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/mecha...1/Capstan.html

Originally Posted by capt_douglas

Given your ground tackle info it looks like the total weight of chain and anchor is about 250kg. Most windlass installations recommend a 3-4x safety factor so I'd be looking at a windlass that can handle 750-1000kg.

It is universally recommended that windlasses be sized according to some multiple (3x or 4x) of the total weight of the ground tackle. Is no one else bothered by this? Why should it be determined by the total weight? Do I need to double my windlass if I go from a 45 meter to a 100 meter chain? I don't think so. The longer the chain, the less likely you are to have the entire chain hanging down vertically in water deeper than the length of the chain. The chances of me, for example, having my entire 100 meters or 328 feet of 12mm chain, weighing 330 kg or a third of a ton, hanging off the bow in 329 foot deep water seems about zero, so why should my windlass be sized on that basis?

[Pelagic]

Some general notes here:

Classification societies like Lloyds or ABS specify that your Ground tackle machinery should be able to lift the complete scope of one Chain and anchor in “X” amount of time…(for example if she dragged into deep water and everything was dangling)

The most versatile winch system is actually a combination of horizontal gypsies in line for the anchors and a vertical capstan that you can use on the bow for tensioning long 90 degree mooring or spare anchor lines that are meant to keep you off a dock in strong winds, or to pull you around if med moored. (This picture shows what I have on Stargazer and it allows me to independently tighten up on 2 chain anchors and one rope warp at the same time)

Stay away from foot buttons and go with a wander lead control that allows you to lean over the side when bringing up a fouled anchor chain, so as to work at freeing it with relief lines

[SvenG]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Classification societies like Lloyds or ABS specify that your Ground tackle machinery should be able to lift the complete scope of one Chain and anchor in “X” amount of time…(for example if she dragged into deep water and everything was dangling)

That's actually the biggest concern I have regarding our current manual winch. I'm not concerned about lifting the whole rode and anchor if it is dangling, there is no need for the 3-4 times safety factor then and we'll still have almost 2 times in the worst case. I am concerned that at about 4" per manual stroke it will take me too long to raise the anchor. We certainly won't be sailing off the anchor every day



-Sven

[Bash]

I went from a vertical windlass on the previous boat to a horizontal windlass on the present boat, and I prefer the later. This windlass seems less inclined to blow circuit breakers than any of the vertical machines with which I've been acquainted.

[matauwhi]

G'day, Mate. I just replaced our Nilsson 3000 vertical with a Maxwell VWC 3500 vertical. The Nilsson had no trouble lifting our 55 kg Bruce and 10 mm chain. I am all ready missing the nifty "wings" that the Nilsson had to tighten up the clutch. Maxwell has the sizing calculations on their website at Winch Selection Guide They do recommend a 3x safety factor.

I also opted to install the power down option. It will increase the lifespan of the gypsy longer term from free wheeling all the time if you're constantly living on the hook. If you are anchoring with a few other vessels around, it's not to deep and the wind is blowing, it is nice to be able to free wheel the anchor to get it down quickly.

[svHyLyte]

Originally Posted by matauwhi

G'day, Mate. I just replaced our Nilsson 3000 vertical with a Maxwell VWC 3500 vertical.....

We have a similar but slightly smaller version of the same Windlass. FYI keep a close eye on the drive motor. It is made by Cima of Italy and the casing is common steel. Although painted, they do begine to rust relatively quickly unless they are routinely treated with a Corrosion Block such as T-9 or something similar. The drive motors are the most commmon point of failure on these otherewise excellant units and are very costly to replace.

FWIW...

[GordMay]

See also
➥ http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...lass-1475.html

[donradcliffe]

For our similar sized boat, we have a Maxwell horizontal 1500 with 300 ft of 8mm HT chain and a 60 pound anchor. Plenty of power, and we have had no issues with the chain jumping the gypsy as long as they are compatible. We use the capstan side with a chain/nylon rode. Two turns around the capstan and it will pull up the second anchor under quite a bit of load--the chain scratches up the capstain chrome a bit, but who cares?

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by Bash

I went from a vertical windlass on the previous boat to a horizontal windlass on the present boat, and I prefer the later. This windlass seems less inclined to blow circuit breakers than any of the vertical machines with which I've been acquainted.

This is good info. Thanks.

[Weyalan]

I don't have a strong opinion on vertical versus horizontal axis. I like vertical axis becase of the lower profile, but I can also see the pros and cons of each type. I have a vertical axis Muir with a rope/chain gypsy. I will say, however, that Muir make top quality gear, and I would thoroughly recommend them.

[capt_douglas]

@SvenG - Suppose you had to anchor with all your chain out? With a weak windlass, getting all that weight back on board might stress the motor and gears to failure. The generally accepted determination of lifting power for a windlass is with the anchor and all the chain hanging straight down. That's the worst case, and the case you are highly encouraged to go by.

You might check out Gord's post/link as well.

www.SavvyBoater.com - Selecting a Windlass
Lewmar Windlasses Selection Guide

[SvenG]

Originally Posted by capt_douglas

@SvenG - Suppose you had to anchor with all your chain out? With a weak windlass, getting all that weight back on board might stress the motor and gears to failure. The generally accepted determination of lifting power for a windlass is with the anchor and all the chain hanging straight down. That's the worst case, and the case you are highly encouraged to go by.

Right, and I still have a 2:1 margin in that case. That was my point.



-Sven