What if we had "intent" in anchoring laws?

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by 2hullvenus

SNIP

Anyone have any ideas on a theoretical set of rules that would allow people to live aboard in anchorages for limited periods of time, eliminate people using anchorages as free derelict boat storage, eliminate half sunken boats, open up morebspace in anchorages for cruisers and generally balance out the problem?

The first thing you would need to do is come up with a definition of "live aboard". I had a very unpleasant experience with a harbor master who was ignorant of the legal definition of "live aboard" that applied to his harbor.

FDEP (who funds a large number of the pump out boats, mostly with pass through federal funds) defines a live aboard as a boat that has someone sleeping on it ten nights a month. The theory here is if you are on a boat for ten days a month that boat needs a pumpout. Some harbor masters are happy if you use their facilities for wet storage and could care less if you are ever on a boat in the anchorage. Others want you to be full time livea board and not be off the boat one night a month.

I had a medical problem that required me to travel to a hospital for almost two weeks and was kicked out of the harbor. I got FDEP involved and got reinstated and the harbor master caught a lot of grief and really dislikes me. I wound up simply moving to another location.

Right now the biggest issue to many folks in Florida pushing anchoring restrictions is that live aboard boats will need a pump out on a regular basis and Florida tax payers are basically funding the boats/facilities that do the pump outs. There is also the issue of how to dispose of trash from live aboard boats. It is all to easy to say just go ashore and use a dumpster, but who is paying for the dumpster. Same for a dock for your tender, and it is not just the cost of the dock but liability issues as well

There are real costs associated with a boat anchored in a city harbor if someone is living on it. As long as FDEP is paying the bills they are first in line to define what a live aboard is. But I would be interested in how others would define live aboard.

[Dave22q]

In Florida a boat with no number or registration sticker is ticketed and eventually seized. It is not a super slow process. Here on Boot Key the law is enforced. If they are not enforcing the laws in your area complain and find out why. boats with proper identification (number and sticker) are a very different story. I know of no local law that compels showing a boat's name and home port

[powsmias]

Originally Posted by zboss

Meanwhile St. Augustine is flooding 6" every 2 days, water gushing out from the drainage pipes, and sewers overflowing into the ICW.

sounds like a global warming thing... eh noaa?
Jordan Candler: What's NOAA Hiding? Agency Leaves Congress in the Dark — The Patriot Post

[capn_billl]

I have confidence that with a little debate we could come up with a fair, balanced law, that we could then sign a petition, and circulate among the yacht clubs, and come up with enough political support to get it to pass.

Once it passes in ONE state, the rest usually follow.


As annoying as they may be, I'm reluctant to toss out the "bums" if they are living on a working boat, as they may be our poorer, and dirtier cousins, but they are in fact living in one of the few free areas left on the planet.

A vacant, and abandoned boat is another story, our waterways aren't dumping grounds.

If I saw a boat anchored for several months with no contact from the owner, I would assume the safety of his boat obviously not a priority, and send him a letter claiming salvage.

If no response in 30 days, salvage it.

[valhalla360]

The problem with intent is who get's to decide your intent. If it's vague and left completely up to the police, it will get struck down.

A specified time limit is better but if you go beyond around a week or two, it gets difficult to prove. Let's say you have a 3month window. Are you really going to have an officer go out and document that the boat hasn't moved each day for 3 months?

If you are legitimately a cruiser, a week maybe as much as two is usually reasonable. If you can legitimately document that you were trapped by weather conditions, the authorities are probably not going to push the issue but if you've been sitting for 3 months waiting to cross...that's a tough sell.

If you want to stay formonths in a popular destination, get a slip or a mooring ball.

[Boatguy30]

Originally Posted by powsmias

sounds like a global warming thing... eh noaa?
Jordan Candler: What's NOAA Hiding? Agency Leaves Congress in the Dark — The Patriot Post

This is why I sold my house in the special flood zone as insurance rates were set to skyrocket and I figured would kill values. Of course all the fiscally sound reforms to the flood insurance program were scrapped so uncle SAM continues to subsidy people to build giant houses in flood prone areas.

[Boatguy30]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Ach, the same people who a "running " Florida now deny that'll ever happen.

They mostly acknowledge the danger at this stage, but is a "job killer" to do anything and single moms will see to much of a rate hike on their utility bills. Is it just me or do current republicans have a major thing for MILFs?


Anyway, I reckon when it's time to build the levies all these guys will be setting up no bid contracts to get the work for themselves.

[capn_billl]

I once had an old car.

I parked it in front on the street.

For several months I parked in the same place, then one day the engine stopped working, I left it there as I didn't have the money to fix it, and rode my bike to school.

After a month there was a red sticker in the windshield that stated this car may be in violation of the city's derelict vehicle law prohibiting abandoning non working vehicles on the street. Call the city to contest, or move the vehicle to prove working condition or it will be impounded in 10 days. The next day a new sticker stated the same with 9 days.

As they were correct the car was NOT working, I called the number, and got an extension to the towing, and worked to get money to pay to fix it, as soon as it was running, I parked somewhere else for a few weeks no more stickers.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel. Most people park their cars on the street, rarely is there a problem with derelict cars being abandoned, and if they are they are towed, and scrapped.

If we have a similar anchoring law, where if a boat doesn't move for several months, it gets a red sticker, and if it still doesn't move in 30 days it gets towed, and auctioned. That would solve the problem, and place little burden on cruisers, and live aboards.

If you somehow get the sticker, call the number, and make arrangements to move the boat. ALL boats in the USA are required to be registered. The registration has a current phone number, and address, and the boats ID is on the side of the boat.

It should be a simple matter to look up the owner, and call them. I expect even our law enforcement to be capable of that.

IF the boat has NO registration, NO ID, and the number is defunct, and a letter to last known address gets no reply in 30 days, then the boat is abandoned, scrap it.

If the owner is on the boat, or nearby, they should be able to intercept the officer with the red stickers.

IN the case of the car, the exact location was placed on the sticker, (and I presume recorded somewhere), in the case of a boat, GPS location with a requirement to move to another anchorage in 30 days if tagged, should be reasonable, and sufficient.

[Stu Jackson]

Bill,

Too simple, and it works.

Can't see it ever happening.

Darn...

Originally Posted by capn_billl

I once had an old car.

I parked it in front on the street.

For several months I parked in the same place, then one day the engine stopped working, I left it there as I didn't have the money to fix it, and rode my bike to school.

After a month there was a red sticker in the windshield that stated this car may be in violation of the city's derelict vehicle law prohibiting abandoning non working vehicles on the street. Call the city to contest, or move the vehicle to prove working condition or it will be impounded in 10 days. The next day a new sticker stated the same with 9 days.

As they were correct the car was NOT working, I called the number, and got an extension to the towing, and worked to get money to pay to fix it, as soon as it was running, I parked somewhere else for a few weeks no more stickers.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel. Most people park their cars on the street, rarely is there a problem with derelict cars being abandoned, and if they are they are towed, and scrapped.

If we have a similar anchoring law, where if a boat doesn't move for several months, it gets a red sticker, and if it still doesn't move in 30 days it gets towed, and auctioned. That would solve the problem, and place little burden on cruisers, and live aboards.

If you somehow get the sticker, call the number, and make arrangements to move the boat. ALL boats in the USA are required to be registered. The registration has a current phone number, and address, and the boats ID is on the side of the boat.

It should be a simple matter to look up the owner, and call them. I expect even our law enforcement to be capable of that.

IF the boat has NO registration, NO ID, and the number is defunct, and a letter to last known address gets no reply in 30 days, then the boat is abandoned, scrap it.

If the owner is on the boat, or nearby, they should be able to intercept the officer with the red stickers.

IN the case of the car, the exact location was placed on the sticker, (and I presume recorded somewhere), in the case of a boat, GPS location with a requirement to move to another anchorage in 30 days if tagged, should be reasonable, and sufficient.

[adlib2]

MY WIFE HAS A SAILING CLUB SHE STARTED IN FLORIDA WITH THE INTENT OF MEMBERS GAINING EXPERIENCE. RENTING SAIL BOATS FOR THE PURPOSE ARE VERY EXPENSIVE. YOUR POST GOT ME THINKING~~WOULD ANYONE CARE IF I HELPED MYSELF TO A FEW OF THEM FOR THE CLUB. AT LEAST THEY WOULD BE USED, MAINTAINED & KEPT IN A MARINA.
WHERE IS THIS PARTICULAR MOORING FIELD? I'M IN ST. AUGUSTINE.
WOULD THEY QUALIFY AS SEA SALVAGE?

[a64pilot]

TURN OFF THE CAPS please.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[adlib2]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

TURN OFF THE CAPS please.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

~~SURE!! WHEN I FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO THAT TYPING WITH ONE HAND~~LOL~~ would all lower case be better?

[Schooner Chandlery]

Originally Posted by tomfl

Right now the biggest issue to many folks in Florida pushing anchoring restrictions is that live aboard boats will need a pump out on a regular basis and Florida tax payers are basically funding the boats/facilities that do the pump outs. There is also the issue of how to dispose of trash from live aboard boats. It is all to easy to say just go ashore and use a dumpster, but who is paying for the dumpster. Same for a dock for your tender, and it is not just the cost of the dock but liability issues as well

There are real costs associated with a boat anchored in a city harbor if someone is living on it. As long as FDEP is paying the bills they are first in line to define what a live aboard is. But I would be interested in how others would define live aboard.

It's interesting that the state of Florida doesn't have the extra money that some states bring in from boaters. For example California's Department of Boating and Waterways, with excess income from the fuel dock fuel taxes and personal property taxes on boats to the tune of (as I recall 2012) over $60M/year was absorbed into their overall recreation and parks department (that was sadly not making any money and needing a bail out...all those people camping, hiking, enjoying the outdoors on LAND end up costing more than the folks on the water it seems).

Several marina and marine industry associations have done studies that show boaters, in general, bring a lot of money into a local and state economy. In most states, boaters are paying boat registration and personal property taxes on the boats and many times pay more in taxes than homeowners in the same metro area. That is based upon homeowners getting certain property tax breaks (e.g. the ones that pay based on purchase price..30 years ago..rather than market value.) Overall, we all pay our taxes and those taxes cover things like trash disposal, etc. As an aside--you can pay for a pumpout in some places that don't have public pumpouts.

People who are camping out on low cost derelict boats and not using them as boats--they aren't boaters, IMO, and sure they're not spending money on boating fuels or parts that benefit the economy. Unfortunately, unlike Bill's analogy of the car that won't run sitting on the road...the big GAP in boating is that there is not a requirement for a boat in use to be safe and cover liability insurance. Bill's car, just to be registered, had to have proof of insurance and in most states an inspection sticker. That sort of thing would go FAR in getting rid of the derelicts in navigable waterways. Anchorages and mooring fields both are included as navigable waterways. These waters are something that the boating public has a right (not a privilege--do the research on the public trust doctrine and you'll see this is a commons issue) to travel along freely and anchoring is part of the travel. Taking up residence in one spot for weeks or months is not traveling it is homesteading (which nobody has the right to do in navigable waterways) and if there are sufficient number of traveling boaters that are displaced by the one's staking a claim to their spot on the water, it becomes a problem for all of us.

Originally Posted by zboss

Anyhow, I have no problem with anchoring time limits but not 3 or 5 days because you may need to wait up to 2 months for a weather window to cross to the Bahamas. If you happen to be off the boat for a couple of weeks visiting your sick mother I don't think you should be towed.

I think 2-3 months in areas that are near inlets is plenty of time.

There are many good reasons to spend months in a particular area and I hope that all cruisers who need to do so, can do so. Leaving a boat unattended at anchor for a couple of weeks for any reason--whether sick mother or a wild party in Vegas--is irresponsible IMO. Most towns and cities do have marinas, public docks, moorings, etc where you can park a boat for a couple weeks if an emergency comes up. Most will be very helpful to you in such an emergency. If it's a planned trip, it's even easier to put a boat into a marina for a bit. It's not affordable, necessarily, but neither is the flight or drive to go see Mother. It's all part of the experience.

Long term anchoring in a single location only seems to work in very remote/rural areas where you're not taking up space other boaters could use. Major metropolitan areas don't take it very well.

Fair winds,
Brenda

[IdoraKeeper]

You guys have a problem. It can only be solved by taxation. Taxes to pay for removal and demolition of derelict vessels. These taxes must be paid by folks who don't want to pay, i.e. non boaters (you must tax money where it exists). Somebody has to pay to remove the derelict vessels. Going forward the non boaters will want the cheapest solution. Prohibiting anchoring regardless of who you are is the straight forward avenue to the least cost. It's a perfect storm against the interests of a minority, cruisers.

[Rustic Charm]

I'm really surprised so many have problems with abondoned and scrapped boats 'at anchor'. I worry when I leave my boat for more than a couple hours on anchor.

We have quite a problem until recently in our little Australian state with more abondoned boats 'on moorings' than any other state. But this year our state marine authority has been going around finding them and confiscating them.

They have also been pulling up illegal moorings. It's great.

But I just can't imagine leaving my boat on anchor for months at a time without me being on it.