Using Too Big an Anchor ?

[Ram]

Originally Posted by endoftheroad

The man says he's on a "budget".

Why is everyone talking about Rocna's and anchor reports?

He knows of a bruce for sale.

The answer is NO, don't buy it, pass it up, it's much too small.

I think why people are talking about Ronca/Manson's is because those who have used them and have used the "other" anchors- know its false economy to buy one of them old style types, and ground tackle is the one thing you do not want to be cheap on- but your right its wayyyyy to small

[Jolly Roger]

Hi Ram,
I have never used a Manson type anchor, but it looks like a solid shank CQR with a ring over the top, (which will not stow on my bowsprit for starters, where I self-stow two heavy CQR’s without touching them). So what is the particular benefit of this design, and how does it work better than a CQR?
It seems to me that there is no answer to this perpetual question of which anchor. It all depends upon the boat, the ground, the depth, the wind, how the anchor stows, (the Manson is suspect, not easily), and not least the way any anchor is actually set. I have seen people stop at their chosen spot, then dump anchor and a pile of chain all in one big lump on the bottom without a care in the world. If they subsequently dragged on rocks, is it the fault of the anchor?
Surely, for a cruising boat, the ideal is to have a few different types of anchors, not least if one has to be let go. I’m now looking for a 40 lbs folding fisherman, which will stow pretty flat on deck and could be used as a stern anchor as well.

[boatman61]

Hohohoho...here we go...
Personally I go with that Bruce but make sure everytime you anchor you can use all chain minimum 3 x length of boat + depth.. I dont like rope rode's on my main hook...
Another heavy weather tactic at anchor you don't hear people mention anymore is the hooking on of a weight halfway along the chain.... a 10kg plough is perfect for this... keeps the lay of the chain lower more of the time and is also a snatch damper

[Ram]

Originally Posted by Jolly Roger

Hi Ram,
I have never used a Manson type anchor, but it looks like a solid shank CQR with a ring over the top, (which will not stow on my bowsprit for starters, where I self-stow two heavy CQR’s without touching them). So what is the particular benefit of this design, and how does it work better than a CQR?
It seems to me that there is no answer to this perpetual question of which anchor. It all depends upon the boat, the ground, the depth, the wind, how the anchor stows, (the Manson is suspect, not easily), and not least the way any anchor is actually set. I have seen people stop at their chosen spot, then dump anchor and a pile of chain all in one big lump on the bottom without a care in the world. If they subsequently dragged on rocks, is it the fault of the anchor?
Surely, for a cruising boat, the ideal is to have a few different types of anchors, not least if one has to be let go. I’m now looking for a 40 lbs folding fisherman, which will stow pretty flat on deck and could be used as a stern anchor as well.

I think the answer is use what works best for you- I had to modify my roller so the Mason would fit-that may be the answer for some folks- for others keep what they have- I personally never used that slot in the shank in the Mason Supreme- I can only tell you I’ve used it (MS) must be getting near a thousand times in the last 4-5 years and it has set first time every time without dragging a bit- in some nasty stuff, - I’ve had lots of different anchors over the last 40 years and none have come close to this one-All the other have dragged--Yes I do have other anchors onboard, but have not needed them other than a few times in very long weeds or rocks- I suppose when you find something that works well beyond your expectation and at a fair price-you want to share it with others so perhaps you might save their buns someday- your right it’s the whole system here that counts, and how you deploy it- you need good chain, shackles and snubber,ect for it all to work when the **** hits the fan

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Hohohoho...here we go...
Personally I go with that Bruce but make sure everytime you anchor you can use all chain minimum 3 x length of boat + depth.. I dont like rope rode's on my main hook...
Another heavy weather tactic at anchor you don't hear people mention anymore is the hooking on of a weight halfway along the chain.... a 10kg plough is perfect for this... keeps the lay of the chain lower more of the time and is also a snatch damper

exagly...said it back on page 2... couldn't agree more!

There's a lot of ways to skin a cat...I usually look around and find the easiest and/or cheapest.

After 23 yrs USCG rescue and now 8 with a salvage company...I learned that advertising and price have little to do with real world and most "performance" tests...change with every edition....

[craigsmith]

Originally Posted by Feral Cat

Question: how much chain do you use with the selected anchor? Do you use more chain when using a lighter weight anchor to compensate for the perceived lighter weight anchor?

No there's not much correlation. You use chain as dictated by the area.

Originally Posted by Feral Cat

If the boat is a lighter displacement hull and load capacities are limited does more chain compensate for use of a lighter anchor (We are talking about the difference between a 33# and a 44# anchor in the OP original question) holding and setting differences aside.

Absolutely not, the most efficient set-up on a weight basis is heavy anchor and minimal length of light chain.

Originally Posted by Feral Cat

With more chain and correct scope, will the difference of a 33 vs. 44# anchor really make that much of a difference?

A 44 lb anchor is 33% better than a 33 lb anchor, period. The chain will make no measurable difference. Scope affects both sizes equally with the heavier anchor withstanding short scope slightly better.

Originally Posted by Feral Cat

Doesn't the chain help to keep the anchor set once it gets set? If use of all rope rode then I can really see a need for a bigger anchor to help keep it set due to the angles created by winds force on the boat. With chain and enough of it, theoretically, there really is minimal pull on the chain at the anchor connection and then only in a direction that actually helps set it further, not pull it out?

No. Catenary is worthless in bad conditions as the rode is pulled straight. The weight is better in the anchor.

Do some more reading. Start here:
www.rocna.com/kb/Rode_optimizations

[afmstm]

In bad conditions, Craig is right that caternary does not help as the rode is straight.

However, the dynamics are important in determining the shock loading of the anchor. Shock loading is caused by the boat drifting windward as the wind lulls (pulled forward by the tension of the rode caused by both the elastic stretch of the rode and/or by the weight of the rode). Then, when the wind gusts, the boat picks up speed as the slack is taken up again until the boat is halted by the force generated by the anchor via the rode when it goes straight.

For an all chain rode, when it hits that "straight" condition, all of the momentum of the boat is transferred to the anchor in a very short time because it does not stretch much - ie a big, high force shock that can be several times the steady state force the anchor is normally exposed to. In contrast, for an all nylon rode (eg stretchy), the momentum of the boat is transferred to the anchor much more slowly as the tension in the rode builds so the peak force applied to the anchor is smaller.

Would you rather hit your head on a brick wall, or a rubber one?

The point of this is that as someone pointed out earlier, you're dealing with a "system" here, and cannot look at the anchor independently of the rest of the gear. Sailors using all chain rode should ensure that they use very long, elastic snubbers to help reduce the shock loads when conditions require it.

AFAIK, none of the anchor tests have looked at this - they all just use steady state pulls, which is probably a poor test of an anchor's holding ability in high winds shock loading conditions.

See this link for more on the dynamics of anchoring.
Tuning an Anchor Rode
In particular, look at the section on Dynamic Behavior.

Van

[Bash]

Originally Posted by endoftheroad

The answer is NO, don't buy it, pass it up, it's much too small.

I'd agree that it's too small, but might not go as far as "much too small."

Either way, pass it up unless it's almost free.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by craigsmith

Absolutely not, the most efficient set-up on a weight basis is heavy anchor and minimal length of light chain.

Please realize that the person giving this advice makes more money if you purchase more anchor, and less money if you purchase more chain.

Real cruisers know better than to listen to such advice.

[craigsmith]

What is that, a false choice to impugn me? You seriously mean to imply that a bigger anchor doesn't perform better than a smaller one?

Rocna will recommend anchor size x, period. The rode make-up is irrelevant unless very low scopes must be tolerated. In suggesting a Rocna size, I won't say use a heavier or lighter anchor unless the intended conditions specified are markedly different to Rocna's general criteria.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by craigsmith

. The rode make-up is irrelevent unless very low scopes must be tolerated.

That's not only misspelled, it's flat out wrong.

i-r-r-e-l-e-v-a-n-t

(And "makeup" doesn't take a hyphen.)

[capnorv]

Lowride14, I assume you will be anchoring our normal Salish Sea set where you use an anchor (the 15kg Bruce with chain/line rode) on the pointy end and a 600' stern tie to shore, which usually can be loop returned to the blunt end of your boat. This common practice alleviates the largest weakness of the Bruce and is a common courtesy in our rather steep to anchorages. It also gives a little more peace of mind where our tidal changes are sometimes 20'-25'. If you want the Bruce and you think its a good deal, get it, and if later you can afford a Ferrari or whatever then at that time you can get that. But in the meantime you'll be able to enjoy your boat in our many isolated, beautiful anchorages. And isn't that what it's all about?

[Kettlewell]

Maybe I'm going to regret this, but let me try to mediate between the all-chain rode and the lesser amounts of chain guys. They are both right! How's that for diplomacy (or maybe that's politics). Yes, all chain reduces swinging room, prevents chafe, and adds to the holding power of a system in normal conditions. I have dove on anchors numerous times and noted that the boat is basically hanging on the chain and the anchor isn't even dug in. To me that proves that chain improves holding in normal conditions. However, once the wind gets beyond a certain point, and that point is lower than many people think, the chain will eventually straighten out and all of a sudden you have a huge problem if you don't have a really long a flexible snubber on the system. Also, at that point the breaking strain of the chain comes into question, and it is way below the breaking strain of any reasonably sized nylon rode. I have experienced the chain suddenly becoming taught while anchored on the Bahama Banks, and I think we were lucky not to have pulled the sampson post out of the boat. We kept adding snubber, but pretty soon we were on like 50% nylon rode anyway (the extra long snubber), with a big loop of chain hanging off the bow. Some folks I know had the chain straighten out in a Bahamas hurricane and it destroyed the bow roller and started to saw right into the boat itself. The skipper lost some fingers in trying to deal with the situation. Of course, all chain is definitely better when you are dealing with bottom chafe, possibly snagging coral heads, etc. But all-chain does not substitute for having a great holding anchor. There will come a point when the extra holding power of the chain is overcome, and then you will be hanging on that anchor.

[Juniper]

Here you go, this might be big enoughhttp://maine.craigslist.org/boa/2203998717.html

[Juniper]

240Lbs