Twisted and kinked Anchor Chain

[Jacko]

Thanks to all for the ideas. I have tried all but the grooved roller will get that done ASAP My problem is that even when I am able to pull the chain out onto a finger in a slip I will have to be down below and un twist the chain to get it up through the haws pipe %*(&^^^) try and imagine how bad that is I have had to do it at sea a couple of times as the whole chain was twisted ( 100Mtrs )
I have very carefully watched the chain come in and the twists as many have mentioned are between the Gypsy ( I think in US you call it the wildcat) and the bow roller. I have been in touch with my winch manufacture and he has no answers other than fit a swivel and that has been done. I believe that it is a chain issue as the 2 previous chains that I have had on this boat have not twisted and I have changed nothing but the chain ????? maybe there is some change that we cant see in link size or shape. Im glad I am not the only boat with this problem I was thinking it was something that I had done.

I am going to try lubricating the chain with lanoline as suggested by a fellow cruiser it has solved a lot of his problems with the build up in his locker his chain now runs smoothly over his retrieval gear and falls well into his locker so it might help ( purchased the lanoline ready to do the job in the next couple of weeks.)

Thanks again for all the ideas Jacko

[neilsty]

Had the same problem. Chain got twisted in the locker, tried dumping it all out, which helped, but after a couple more times anchoring we had the problem again. The twist was in the locker, so nothing to do with the swivel. We solved it by having the lewmar rep look at the windlass and told us to get a new gypsy. Put the correct gypsy on which is very slightly different, and no problems since.

[OldBawley]

Some years ago I asked the same question on a different forum.

What causes anchor chain to turn ?

After one more chain I believe the twisting has to do with rust / wear.

On our kedges I use about 15 m of chain, then rope. The chain was a piece of no good quality Turkish stuff. Rusted now and twists so bad it forms knots. No gypsy, no nothing, only used in a straight pull.

After using our last chain for 4 years with lots of anchoring in the Poros / Methana ( Ex volcanic ) area the chain is at its end again. Wear at the joining points of the links is up to 1mm ( 8 mm chain )

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by OldBawley

Some years ago I asked the same question on a different forum.

What causes anchor chain to turn ?

After one more chain I believe the twisting has to do with rust / wear.

On our kedges I use about 15 m of chain, then rope. The chain was a piece of no good quality Turkish stuff. Rusted now and twists so bad it forms knots. No gypsy, no nothing, only used in a straight pull.

After using our last chain for 4 years with lots of anchoring in the Poros / Methana ( Ex volcanic ) area the chain is at its end again. Wear at the joining points of the links is up to 1mm ( 8 mm chain )

Chain wear makes a bad gypsy fit, as does gypsy wear/damage.

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by colemj

I'm having a difficult time picturing a chain turning in a vertical windlass gypsy. If it did jump out of the depressions, it would jam before going into the boat - no?

I've seen horizontal windlass gypsies where the chain can jump and turn because there are only 1-3 depressions holding the chain and the chain falls down the back by gravity.

But even then, the jumping and racket is so bad that one would immediately recognize the problem.

The OP hasn't returned yet to answer any of the questions regarding condition of the chain and bow roller.

Mark

You are right that it is easier in a horizontal windlass. However it is must assuredly possible in a vertical one. I have witnessed it and indeed in neither horizontal nor vertical is it necessarily particularly obvious. The friend of mine to whom it happened it is generally a very careful sailor, many years a sailmaker, and usually the guy in the anchorage who is assisting everyone else. He didn't notice the small mismatch until it was too late. He also assumed it was due to spinning at anchor, which it was not.

Has it not occurred to you that there is a reason why vertical gypsies also have fine tuned calibrations? I mean, why bother if being vertical obviates the problem?

It does not.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

Incorrect. It may well do if the chain is incorrectly sized (gypsy being the same as the US "wildcat"). Some buy chain and fit it without understanding that the gypsy/wildcat must be matched to the link size exactly. If it is not, the chain will often jump as it comes in, landing a partial turn off, and resulting in a ratcheting twist.

Well.... I've only been sailing for 50 years so what so I know.
First... why would you buy incorrect chain? There's your problem.
Second, the chain will jump a lot if it's coming up with big kinks in it from being twisted in the water.
Third, who cares if the chain did twist inside the chain locker an occasional link, that is not the problem specified here.
Fourth, if a link does jump and the chain is already twisted up... it will not want to twist tighter!

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Well.... I've only been sailing for 50 years so what so I know.
First... why would you buy incorrect chain? There's your problem.
Second, the chain will jump a lot if it's coming up with big kinks in it from being twisted in the water.
Third, who cares if the chain did twist inside the chain locker an occasional link, that is not the problem specified here.
Fourth, if a link does jump and the chain is already twisted up... it will not want to twist tighter!

Well I didn't mean to get your back up. I've only been coastal/ocean sailing for 32 or so, but I am still well capable of being incorrect. I didn't say that I bought incorrect chain, but I did say that I have seen it happen quite a bit. Heck, I've even seen two grades of chain welded into the same rode. It happens. And when it does, the gypsy can skip, and when it skips, the chain quite often twists. I have, on my own boat, exactly matched gypsy and chain. My chain NEVER twists or kinks noticeably, at all. Not once, ever. This despite the fact that I live aboard and 90% of that time at anchor, in all three major Oceans and many a sea. I am sure there may be other causes of kinking and twisting, such as some that you have suggested and some suggested by others. But your dismissal of incorrectly matched chain and gypsy is, simply, incorrect.

I almost always enjoy your posts and have not yet seen you say something which was not so, until this point. It is simply wrong to dismiss this as a cause. There are others, as well, and perhaps I may have misinterpreted, but your response here doesn't suggest I did.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

You are correct that a poor match between gypsy and chain can cause skipping and so twisting. However you may not be aware that the end user is expected to match the chain to the gypsy or vice versa. For every model of Lewmar windlass there are multiple grades of gypsy which are interchangeable for different chain guages.

Not that I rate Lewmar windlasses that much, however. Their inexplicable (I have actually listened to the deafening silence of their response to my query about why they insist on doing this) use of aluminium in the shaft spacer barrel has caused me serious miseries on several boats, and nearly led to a friend of mine losing hers. Aluminium bonded to stainless, bronze, and mild steel is a really very bad combination.

Definately true. This one was exchanged for the "correct"5/16in one that fits ACCO chain. I still don't think they fit well and do cause the problem.

[Schooner Chandlery]

Our boat had an unknown brand of chain for some years and then the PO changed it to 1/2" ACCO BBB w/o changing the gypsy. He says he used it once and said "oops" and got the correct gypsy/wildcat (which one is it?) for the 1/2" ACCO BBB chain.

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery

Our boat had an unknown brand of chain for some years and then the PO changed it to 1/2" ACCO BBB w/o changing the gypsy. He says he used it once and said "oops" and got the correct gypsy/wildcat (which one is it?) for the 1/2" ACCO BBB chain.

Both. Wildcat in the US, gypsy in most other English speaking locations.

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery

He says he used it once and said "oops" and got the correct gypsy/wildcat (which one is it?) for the 1/2" ACCO BBB chain.

I differ from Muckle Flugga.


I'd say "wildcat in the US and chain-wheel in most other English speaking economies, with the note that gypsy (or gipsy) is used by a minority in an error".


I've traced the use of "wildcat" in printed and published works to as early as 1877. That included several US patents for anchor windlasses, including one in 1878 that annotated a diagram with "the chain-wheel or wild-cat". An 1877 patent referred to "the wild-cat pulleys".


OED lists "wildcat" as dating from 1884.


My best guess is that "wild-cat" was used in reference to the unusually high strength of a wildcat and in parallel with the idea that a chain-wheel powered by a power take-off (from a engine) had higher strength than crew catting an anchor by walking a windlass.


I recommend reserving "gypsy" for a warping drum, especially a small auxiliary drum on the end of a windlass, which is of course for handling a hawser or rope anchor rode.


Al

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by Alan Mighty

I differ from Muckle Flugga.


I'd say "wildcat in the US and chain-wheel in most other English speaking economies, with the note that gypsy (or gipsy) is used by a minority in an error".


I've traced the use of "wildcat" in printed and published works to as early as 1877. That included several US patents for anchor windlasses, including one in 1878 that annotated a diagram with "the chain-wheel or wild-cat". An 1877 patent referred to "the wild-cat pulleys".


OED lists "wildcat" as dating from 1884.


My best guess is that "wild-cat" was used in reference to the unusually high strength of a wildcat and in parallel with the idea that a chain-wheel powered by a power take-off (from a engine) had higher strength than crew catting an anchor by walking a windlass.


I recommend reserving "gypsy" for a warping drum, especially a small auxiliary drum on the end of a windlass, which is of course for handling a hawser or rope anchor rode.


Al

Well, language is dynamic. I have noted a few neologisms and novel constructions by US English speakers which have crept into the language and now are considered standard, no?

In any case I don't have time to research the history of it just now, but it is clear that "gypsy" in modern parlance is neither in the minority, nor in error:

E.g.: Windlasses products

Or are one of the main manufacturers of windlasses just talking jive?

Also, a search for "windlass gypsy" in quotes on google turns up 6780 results to "windlass wildcat" 's 862. The numbers and experts don't appear to be on your side on this one.

Oh, and as you know, English is a LOT older than 1884 old bean! As to reserving wildcat for a "warping drum" you would simply be confusing the situation and pointlessly so, it seems. A gypsy is a wildcat, just as a boot is a trunk.

[impi]

Just a thought here - we are looking to replace our chain at the moment and were speaking with friends of ours on the dock today who recently purchased a new galvanised chain.

They were saying their chain was twisting up and was a problem. No matter what they did it kept doing this so they got hold of the Italian manufacturer and were advised to 'brush the chain' on the dock briskly with a stiff brush and fresh water as apparently the galvanising process can leave rough edges which causes the links not to 'glide' in place.

They advised they followed the instructions and the issue was resolved.

It amazed me this worked but they are convinced it solved their probloem.

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by impi

Just a thought here - we are looking to replace our chain at the moment and were speaking with friends of ours on the dock today who recently purchased a new galvanised chain.

They were saying their chain was twisting up and was a problem. No matter what they did it kept doing this so they got hold of the Italian manufacturer and were advised to 'brush the chain' on the dock briskly with a stiff brush and fresh water as apparently the galvanising process can leave rough edges which causes the links not to 'glide' in place.

They advised they followed the instructions and the issue was resolved.

It amazed me this worked but they are convinced it solved their probloem.

Hi there Impi. Indeed this may well be the case> I have had similar issues on regalvanised chains particularly if "hot dip". It leads to the same behaviour of "skipping" on a gypsy, if you think about it, and also leads to similar asymmetric behaviour on rollers etc. A thorough inspection of the chain with abrasive brushing particularly of obvious knobbles should solve this.

[impi]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

Hi there Impi. Indeed this may well be the case> I have had similar issues on regalvanised chains particularly if "hot dip". It leads to the same behaviour of "skipping" on a gypsy, if you think about it, and also leads to similar asymmetric behaviour on rollers etc. A thorough inspection of the chain with abrasive brushing particularly of obvious knobbles should solve this.

Hi Muckle Flugga - very interesting - I can see the logic. They did say there were some imperfections but I was quite amazed they could simply brush it out. They did say the chain was a new 'hot dip' galvanised chain, so yeah - very interesting