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Old 29-03-2009, 02:17   #1
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Thoughts on Anchor Gear?

Hi

I have had my 36 foot cat for about 18 months used mainly for weekend sailing. Light Displacement is about 5000Kg.

I am getting her prepared for a long coastal cruise and the anchor system supplied by the manufacturer needs some improvement. I would appreciate anyones comments on 2 items

1: It has a S/S swivel connecting the chain to the anchor. (Picture attached). This makes me nervous as it is not a failsafe device although looks pretty strong. (2000Kg SWL)

Comments would be appreciated on whether there is a significant advantage to anchor performance in using a swivel as I am planning to go back to an old fashioned shackel.

2: I am planning to get a Delta anchor to use as primary in place of the Kobra 16Kg and will probably go to 20Kg. I have had ongoing issues with the Kobra requiring 2 or 3 attempts to set and breaking out in moderate current/wind conditions in a mud bottom. A minumum of 3 x scope on 10mm chain in depths varying between 6M and 10 M. I could not sleep at night in an open anchorage based on my experiences to date.

I was surprised to see in the Practical Sailor assessment that the Kobra 12Kg was rated highly although their test of the 14kG was showed poor performance for some reason. Mine has been lousy and would relate to their 14Kg assessment.

They referred to the fact that the tilting mechanism (for easy storage) locks the blade in place for anchoring. Mine does not lock so my guess is that the blade angle is changing when it hits the bottom.

My remedy is to buy a Delta as prime and keep the Kobra as a backup, after bolting/welding the tilt mechanism.

Any info on the Kobra would be appreciated.

I have only seem good comments on the Delta. Primary use will be in sand/mud and tidal currents can mean a lot of swinging.
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Old 29-03-2009, 03:05   #2
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The Delta is a better anchor than the popular CQR, but IMHO it is not as good as the latest generation of anchors.
In Europe the Delta is very cheap and the New Zealand anchors expensive, but in Australia you should find the prices closer and I would go for a Rocna or Manson supreme.
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Old 29-03-2009, 03:33   #3
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I am very unhappy with my manson supreme. Emailed manson and they were not much help. The CQR which they sell is much better.
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Old 29-03-2009, 03:52   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seafox View Post
I am very unhappy with my manson supreme.
There have been very few negative posts about the performance (which I presume is the problem) of the new generation anchors, particuarly the Rocna and Manson Supreme.
I would be interested to hear some more details.
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Old 29-03-2009, 05:37   #5
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Thanks Nolex.

The Supreme is still about 50% more costly than the equivalent Delta. I will look at the Rocna, I have not priced them yet.

Unfortunately proximity does not mean low price - I once bought an Australian made scuba tank in Singapore for less then half the asking price in Sydney!
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Old 29-03-2009, 06:47   #6
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Originally Posted by MKB53 View Post
Thanks Nolex.

The Supreme is still about 50% more costly than the equivalent Delta. I will look at the Rocna, I have not priced them yet.

Unfortunately proximity does not mean low price - I once bought an Australian made scuba tank in Singapore for less then half the asking price in Sydney!
I thought the price may be closer in Australia.I guess the set international prices by lottery. In a recent UK magazine the prices listed for 20KG anchors are in pounds
Delta 169.99
Supreme 269.95 (1.59X the cost of the Delta)
So It looks like the cost difference is similar in the UK and Australia.
Generally you will find the Rocna is moderately more expensive than the Supreme, but in some countries the prices are close.
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Old 29-03-2009, 07:07   #7
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Sorting out the anchor thing is difficult. For one it's hard to do controlled performance tests. What you get instead is loads of anecdotal reports of users of different anchors with different boats under different conditions and are left to precipitate something of value from these reports.

The old anchors will have the most use, the most common and those in service the longest, will have the most good reports and the most poor performance reports. The newer designs will have less so so the statistical sampling is smaller and less reliable. Reliability with this approach will only come when there is a large sample space which covers the many variables.

Add to that the notion that most sailors don't use multiple anchors, but usually use the one on the bow except in "special" circumstances and so they have little basis of comparison.

A "professional" reviewer would have a broad range of experiences so their opinion / report would should reflect this. But this does not diminish the value of the review of a sailor who has used anchor X for 20 years.

I have had the same 35# CQR the original Simpson Lawrence for 22 years. I anchor alot, never stay at a dock, rarely at a mooring. I have found it to be up to the task for my 36' 16K# sloop in almost all conditions. Have I dragged? yes! But few times over the years and many of them in the eel grass at Cutty Hunk.

While many new designs interest me - Rocna, Manson Supreme, etc. I have no real reason to upgrade and they must fit my bow/anchor/roller windlass. Low priority for me, but I might have to consider a new anchor in the future.
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Old 29-03-2009, 07:40   #8
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I've used a Delta for years as a primary and am moving to a Supreme (substitute Rocna, Spade, and maybe Raya if you prefer). The Delta's a great anchor if you:

a) ignore Lewmar's weight table and go up at least one size if not two.

b) use plenty of scope (an honest 5:1+)

From canvasing friends with the Supreme, both of these factors seem to be slightly less critical. A slightly lighter anchor will do as well and if you are in a tight space you can cheat a little on the scope and still sleep. The price difference is much narrower if you compare the recommended size Supreme with a one size heavier than recommended Delta.

Or - do as I'll do. Treat the Supreme like a Delta - go up a size and lay out a lot of scope - and sleep really well.

I haven't bought the Supreme yet so I'd be interested if anyone comments on this strategy. I also sort of miss a really good anchor argument. It's been almost six months since the last one. Let's see...what would start a good argument....

Putting lanolin on your anchor improves holding power 'cause it slides in better

Carl
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Old 29-03-2009, 07:47   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKB53 View Post
Hi
1: It has a S/S swivel connecting the chain to the anchor. (Picture attached). This makes me nervous as it is not a failsafe device although looks pretty strong. (2000Kg SWL)

Comments would be appreciated on whether there is a significant advantage to anchor performance in using a swivel as I am planning to go back to an old fashioned shackle.

Hi MKB 53,

I think this first question is the last controversial one... As a full time “living aboard” I’ve used my anchor without any kind of swivel, including anchored in Brazilian river mouths with changing currents with the tide... never have any problem...

Although you swivel seems to be strong enough, I will not recommend you to keep it in your mooring rode... at least, you can make a test, remove it, look at the difference... and take your own decision..


Quote:
2: I am planning to get a Delta anchor to use as primary in place of the Kobra 16Kg and will probably go to 20Kg. I have had ongoing issues with the Kobra requiring 2 or 3 attempts to set and breaking out in moderate current/wind conditions in a mud bottom. A minimum of 3 x scope on 10mm chain in depths varying between 6M and 10 M. I could not sleep at night in an open anchorage based on my experiences to date.


The Delta anchor is a good general use anchor...

The Kobra is a “clone” made by Plastimo (or better say, made in China for Plastimo) with a tilting shank.

The official purpose of this tilting shank is to reduce the anchor size to better store it in the anchor locker... but in reality, this tilting shank design has been done to avoid Delta patent problems!...

The Delta is an improvement over the classical CQR anchor, but the “New Gen” anchors, with a “scoop fluke” design are much better both for sea bed penetration and for holding...

João
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Old 29-03-2009, 08:06   #10
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Has anyone tried the Max?

Super MAX Anchors

Is this what you mean by "scoop fluke"?
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Old 29-03-2009, 08:45   #11
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More scope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlF View Post
I've used a Delta for years as a primary and am moving to a Supreme (substitute Rocna, Spade, and maybe Raya if you prefer). The Delta's a great anchor if you:

a) ignore Lewmar's weight table and go up at least one size if not two.

b) use plenty of scope (an honest 5:1+)


Carl
More scope!

That anything sticks at 3:1 scope is impressive - I would not judge an anchor by its ability to set at 3:1. 7:1 is more the standard.

You did not mention you rode. I'm going to guess it is 30' chain + rope, and given your light weight, I bet you do not want 300' of chain in the bow. Thus, you should always use 7:1 scope, IMHO. More chain would be good, though.

You did not mention a bridle. I assume you have such.

Your picture did not come through. However, in general swivels do come up through the rollers better (windlass?). I would look at the weakest link - chain, rope, shackles - and match them by SWL. The rating seems correct. Remember, the actual breaking strength is at at least triple that figure, perhaps 7000KG.
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Old 29-03-2009, 22:37   #12
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Hi Thinwater.

I am on an all chain rode (10mm) with a windlass and bridle that hangs about 1.5M below water level when slack. Although this is the first boat I have owned I have sailed OPB quite a bit and never had much trouble setting a pick.
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Old 03-04-2009, 17:21   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
There have been very few negative posts about the performance (which I presume is the problem) of the new generation anchors, particuarly the Rocna and Manson Supreme.
I would be interested to hear some more details.

I have found the manson supreme to be useless. I sold my manson plough to buy their so called "new generation" anchor.

In achoridges where the plough used to bite and hold us the new MS drags. I have even anchored in one spot in 5m of water and with 50m of chain and after a nights settling can drag the anchor with 1200rpm on the motor.

I emailed the owner of MS and he basically answered a few of my emails and then ignored my problem.

When I get some time I am going to video how useless this anchor is and put a link on youtube.
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Old 03-04-2009, 19:08   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seafox View Post
I have found the manson supreme to be useless. I sold my manson plough to buy their so called "new generation" anchor.

In achoridges where the plough used to bite and hold us the new MS drags. I have even anchored in one spot in 5m of water and with 50m of chain and after a nights settling can drag the anchor with 1200rpm on the motor.

I emailed the owner of MS and he basically answered a few of my emails and then ignored my problem.

When I get some time I am going to video how useless this anchor is and put a link on youtube.
Seafox,

What size Supreme? What size plow?

Curious since your experience runs exactly opposite to mine.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 03-04-2009, 20:12   #15
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Sea Foxes experience is the polar opposite of mine too and Manson had incredible responses and in a timely manner to any of my questions or requests.

My Manson Supreme set over 120 times on the first try with never a drag or failure to re-set. A buddy is now using it and has experienced the same performance I had. I currently use a Rocna and it too has performed at a 100% perfect set, no drags rate.

I really can't wait to see this "video"..

Here's one I made..

Manson Video (LINK)
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