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Old 14-04-2007, 16:43   #31
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Just a few comments, as I do

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What ever happened to good marine chandleries where you could walk in with a part, compare it to others, and buy the appropriate one?
They are there, just look harder. WM and the likes are like the supermarket, piles of alsorts at a price demanded by the punters i.e cheap. The little fellas , like myself, can only compete based on knowledge and superior quality. Find a small outfit that has been around for a while and you maybe very surprised at what good stuff you'll find. We have to be that extra good or get nailed by the big boys.

A nice example - A superboat in a panic for some big fenders. They are leaving at 9 this morning (Sunday) for the panama /Med. They haunted around our WM's and found only toy sized cheaply made gear, couldn't find anything. I got a call 7pm last nite (saturday) "do you have xx big fenders and the ropes for tham?" "Yeap sure do". "We are leaving at 10 tomorrow morning can you help?" So 1st thing this morning I got up early (not an easy thing to do ) went to work, spliced the ropes and delivered them to the boat at 8am so they could get to customs. Many big boys do that stuff?
We have to work harder for our punters.

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Also, does anyone know how to measure the size of a chain?
The 'size' of a chain is the size of the wire made into the link i.e if a 10mm wire is bent and welded to geather that is a 10mm chain. Sorry no imperial measurements it's too mauch hard work . The other key chain measurement is the 'Pitch'. The real technical way of measuring this is not that easy to explian but it is basically the same as the internal length of each link. Width should not be a worry to 99.9% of users, it is reasonably standard. When repalcing your chain the pitch measurement is very important if fitted to a winch. Any variation of the wire size will effect the pitch measurement.

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Anyone else finding it impossible to size their shackle?
Basically a shackles size is the pin material diameter measurement, this is a 'general' statement as there are exceptions. You have 2 basic types of shackles when talking size. One is the bog standard, say 10mm, shackle where the pin and body measure the same. The other is found on the alloy shackles mentioned here and others like the BS standard. These have a pin size that is bigger than the body, usually '1 step' up i.e a 13mm alloy shackle has a 11mm body sort of thing.

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Talking to riggers they claim that they are not allowed to use chain shackles without the correct color that rates them for safe use in lifting items that humans might walk under. I've seen red, blue and yellow pin colors yet do not know just what color means what.
Correct. The alloy shackles are designed for use on cranes and the like. The differant coloured pins mean nothing at all. Basically the colour differances are to try and copy the genuine Van Beest green pins. The only real differance between the colours is that the Green pins are made in the Netherlands where the rest are made in china.

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All of the good USA brand
Like Crosbys chinese shackles, Nikes chinese shirts, Defenders chinese lot of stuff, Levis chinese/mexican jeans now (how sad), WM masses of chinese. Sure some of the above mentioned do make some stuff in the US but it's not going to last long. Actually some of the Denfenders US product is made in NZ. Ya just never know these days.

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I have one size too small of a shackle right now (7/16 from Crosby and stamped with the SWL, and a nice load-tested red pin). I will use this temporarily (for about a week) while I go to the next spot, from which I will search for a 1/2" Crosby or similar shackle. I feel safer using one size too small that was at least properly rated than the unknown "soft metal" Chinese shackle.

Oddly, the Crosby 7/16 shackle is physically much smaller, but weights MORE than the Chinese 1/2"!!
Sorry to pop your bubble but red pins are made in china. See above.

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Bottom line: I think alloy shackles are the way to go, since they are massively strong.
and
Quote:
For short term use there is no doubt that the higher strength high carbon steel shackles are stronger but when does one know just when they become actually weaker? If one is willing to change them with dilligence then O.K. otherwise beware.
Correct on both statements but the one I like the best and fully agree with is the bottom, How do you know it's about to go snap? In short you'll have no warning at all, just a sound like a dry twig snapping and she's all over rover. No stretch, deformation, no nothing.

Some American dude called Newton, I think, once said for every action there is a reaction i.e for every good there is a bad.

When it comes down to the bottom line, 99.9% of boaters worldwide use bog standard galvanised shackles of which 99.9% are now made in china. Some are good and some are bad, it is usually obvious to see by just looking at them. They do work pretty well obviuosly other wise boats would be drifting all over the show right now, which they are not.

While saying that I must also add that I've never seen or heard of a chinese Green pin copy going below it's stated load, spot on it or very close but never below. The green pins go well above their stated load. Personally I don't have any major issues with any of the 'the colours of the rainbow ' coloured pin shackles I know of. But I'd also never use on in my anchoring system.
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Old 14-04-2007, 17:29   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMac
Like Crosbys chinese shackles, Nikes chinese shirts, Defenders chinese lot of stuff, Levis chinese/mexican jeans now (how sad), WM masses of chinese. Sure some of the above mentioned do make some stuff in the US but it's not going to last long. Actually some of the Denfenders US product is made in NZ. Ya just never know these days.

Sorry to pop your bubble but red pins are made in china. See above.
Great informative response, Gmac. Thanks. Only thing that needs a slight correction is that the shackle I bought (Crosby) is made in Canada.
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Old 14-04-2007, 18:10   #33
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The first none green pins with a name on them, you maybe right. Had a suss of the site and it says shackles are made in their Texas, Canadian and Belguim factories.

Mind you when I was asking a chinese outfit what stamps their G7 chain had the answer was "what would you like"
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Old 14-04-2007, 18:37   #34
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Newton Not an Eastern Philosopher

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GMac, he say,
Some American dude called Newton, I think, once said for every action there is a reaction i.e for every good there is a bad.
Isaac Newton was definitely an Englishman who proposed that not only does every action have a reaction, but that the reaction is both equal and opposite to the action.

Newton would say his statement pertained to "natural philosophy," what we call science, but he would hardly agree that he was making an statement about "good and bad," which rightly belong in the area of philosophy; the idea of good and bad somehow balancing is often associated with Eastern metaphysics.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread…
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Old 14-04-2007, 19:42   #35
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"Basically a shackles size is the pin material diameter measurement, this is a 'general' statement as there are exceptions."

Actually, shackles in this part of the world at least are sized by their shank size, not the pin size. For example, a 3/8" shackle has a 7/16" pin size, and a 7/16" shackle has a 1/2" pin size. See the links above for Crosby, CM, etc.

Bill
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Old 15-04-2007, 01:39   #36
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CaptainJeff - it is now later in the day and post-coffee. I do believe you are quite right, it was early sunday, far from my finest hour Deepest apoligies to the English for my attempt to simulate a Hollywood movie director

Bill - regional differances are common. More often than not the US runs to a differant tune than most else. A sort of 'how many mm to a 3/8' thing
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Old 15-04-2007, 04:47   #37
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Originally Posted by GMac
CaptainJeff - it is now later in the day and post-coffee. I do believe you are quite right, it was early sunday, far from my finest hour Deepest apoligies to the English for my attempt to simulate a Hollywood movie director

Bill - regional differances are common. More often than not the US runs to a differant tune than most else. A sort of 'how many mm to a 3/8' thing
Must be an "imperialist" measurement.
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Old 15-04-2007, 06:51   #38
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GMac,

You're right about that, but I think I'd be pretty pissed to buy a "3/8" or "10mm" shackle later to find that only the pin was that size, while the rest was 5/16" or 8mm. Weakest link and all that.

Since we're such a litigious society, the manufacturers and vendors probably don't wanna leave themselves open to the ire of angry sailors and such :-)

Happy Sunday!

Bill
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Old 16-04-2007, 00:41   #39
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Monday Bill, another regional differance. We are always waiting for you lot to catch up, you just never seem to quite do it
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Old 16-04-2007, 07:05   #40
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You're right, GMac!

And, the way we've been heading lately I think we're regressing :-(

Happy Monday!

Bill
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Old 17-04-2007, 19:33   #41
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I have had excellent service from Defender
and from another company I rarely see in print,
Mercer's Marine. Mercer's handles SS shackles,
Chinese shackles, and the very good yellow-pinned
load-rated galvanised shackles at very low prices.
As in $2.60 for the 1/2 inch size.

Mercer's Marine

I bought samples of all three types
and then loaded up on the yellow-pinned jobs.

Shas
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Old 14-07-2008, 09:57   #42
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Shackles are terrible now days. If you see old ones at a yard sale, used boat supply etc that have that nice grey patina, even if a little dirty etc, get 'em. The new ones rust immediately as the galvanizing is... well not real galvanizing! On the other hand, if you are talking a 1/2" diameter pin.... well.... that will likely be the strongest part of your chain system anyway. Here's where to get the real thing: McMaster-Carr you can even get the old style with the cotter pin instead of threads!
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Old 14-07-2008, 12:12   #43
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I only shop at West for stuff I Need Right Now. I'm happy with Defender - Delivery is in 36-48 hrs here in Baltimore, no sales tax covers the shipping charge, they have nearly everthing in stock, and their prices are much less than West on the same product. I don't know how West survives.
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Old 14-07-2008, 23:46   #44
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That's why it pays to develop a relationship

with a competent "wrench", rigger, electronics, all round person.

I don't mind if I get asked for a reference.

All my customers are word of mouth referrals.

Where people get into trouble is when they deal with a yard and don't do their homework before going in. As far as getting paid well, if you are in a yard...the mechanic only sees about 1/3 of the yard rate.....the rest goes to the office weenies.

The most difficult time for me is meeting a customer who has been burned once, twice, thrice......It takes some time to redevelop that trust.


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Originally Posted by Benny View Post
So true - that also includes the level of competance from many repair/service technicians who many times miss something when repairing equipment, don't do it right or just don't care to do a good job - they still get paid well though and we get charged alot for inferior work.

That's why I try to do most all my own repairs and instalations and why this forum is so great as there are so many knowledgeable members who are willing to help with their advice.

Hats off to all of you
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