Switch chain or separate rode when switching anchors?

[captstu]

Unity,

I think you understand the configuration I am advocating.

It work for me because I could set the fortress before I enter the Anchorage dump it in the water and it would hang on the chain just below the waterline.

I shackled it to the trip point where the shank of the Bruce joined the fluke largely because it was there. I could reach it easily from my floor deck without risk of losing the chain or shackle.

With that result is that I entered the Anchorage With the Bruce still in its bow tripper- roller and the fortress hang it out of the water. Since it was a cat there was no danger of the Fortress hitting any of the boats fiberglass.

When I reach the anchoring. I deployed enough chain from the cockpit controlled windless to have the Bruce still in its bow roller and the fortress hanging in the water. Since it was a cat there was no danger of the Fortress hitting any of the boats fiberglass.

When I reach the anchoring. I deployed enough chain from the cockpit controlled windless to Jane the fortress just hit the bottom. At that point I would back slowly and deploy thr chain slowly. When I dived the result, usually the tip of the fortress was just under the water and Bruce was in a straight line behind the fortress unset. On soft bottoms the Bruce set over the course of the next few minutes and the Fortress began to dig in until it was flat.

I honestly have no idea which one held the boat. During the few bad storms and two hurricanes I experienced with the set up I does the set up many times the next morning. In all cases the Bruce was lightly set in the fortress was buried usually to the full depth of the chain.

This is where the trip. Attachment became critical. Since the load on the Bruce was carried completely by the shack with a secondary load pulling forward and down on the trip. The Bruce almost always set In addition to the fortress.

The only problem I was on able to overcome is the bridal. My primary bridal was a 5/8 inch bridal it was 45 feet long. The last was limited because I wanted no chance the Bridle would enter the propellers. Five eights was the largest size I could accommodate. The cam inaction had adequate stretch for most conditions.

During storm conditions are use the second bridal also five eights that was 65 feet long and shackled midships. These clearly were not adequate since both broke during hurricane Wilma. I never solve the problem but never saw hurricane like Wilma again. I suppose if it would’ve happened again I would’ve put a third bravo on that was shackled to the start and cleats, but it never happened.

The primary bridal easily supported 60 that wins that were blowing in one direction. The breakage during Wilma occurred because the boats suddenly moved down the rode over the anchor and fetched up the other side.

I hope I never see this again.

[captstu]

Even though I didn't say so earlier, I always tested my anchoring after 30 minutes or so of "set" time. With twin engines at 2500 rpm, I never had to reset the tandem setup. Sometimes, on dive inspection, I had the Bruce set, sometimes, the Fortress.

But, as you can expect, I did not inspect the anchoring during times where I needed the tandem anchors most - when it was blowing stink and I sort of had to trust it. Then, I just set the tandem, released the scope, and after 10 minutes went up and set the bridle.

Grew to trust the idea they would never let go - and in 4+ years of anchoring, I never had a problem.

You can clearly feel the tandem setup set - let out scope slowly until you get the right length (about 7:1 minus bridle) and hold on. The boat lurches to a stop a few minutes later when the chain is layed out.

Twice I had t replace chain - both times 5/16 HT - and both times, I didn't mind the expense since the chain was light enough to use an all chain rode, ran thru the windless well, and I slept well.

BTW, I sed a KONG anchor grabber to hold the bridle. Even when the bridle failed, the KONG was not damaged.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Unity

Interesting. I did some googling on this but found nothing other than the "minimum" from Fortress of 6 feet chain per 25 feet of depth. But I went ahead and sent a question off to Fortress Anchors, and I'll make sure to update when/if I get an answer. Thanks!

I've had long discussions with Fortress on this and done some testing (book out soon!),

The problem is not how long the chain is, it is how heavy it is, right on the shank. In very soft mud, the chain will drag the shank below the flukes, causing them to angle up and not bite. The mud palms help, but not always enough. This is why it is some times suggested to get an initial "bite" at short scope, though the reasoning is not always made clear.

The answer is to use the lightest chain possible, at least G43 and grade 70 if the boat is large enough, and no heavier than required. In fact, unlike other anchors, it will set better in very soft mud with NO CHAIN AT ALL. Having done a LOT of testing is soft mud, I know this for established fact. You do need to use long scope to set. You can shorten up later.



The other interesting thing about Fortress anchors is that once set at long scope, they resist uplift better than any other style, not just by a little, but by a lot. This is why they can be a bugger to break out--you can't have it both ways. This is also why shortening up is OK after power setting.

I've been using a Fortress a lot as a kedge and to immobilize the boat as a test platform while pulling other anchors to failure. I use no chain, but I do use a 20-foot Dyneema leader with a chafe cover. Much of my reason is that I was resetting often and often using two anchors (soft mud and pulling other anchors to failure); no chain is easier to work with in dinghies. A special case.

Am I saying "no chain?" No. Chain has other advantages for Fortress anchors in mud, mostly in terms of moderating wind shifts. Just use light, high strength chain and don't go oversize. Go longer if you want more catenary.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I've had long discussions with Fortress on this and done some testing (book out soon!),

The problem is not how long the chain is, it is how heavy it is, right on the shank. In very soft mud, the chain will drag the shank below the flukes, causing them to angle up and not bite. The mud palms help, but not always enough. This is why it is some times suggested to get an initial "bite" at short scope, though the reasoning is not always made clear.

The answer is to use the lightest chain possible, at least G43 and grade 70 if the boat is large enough, and no heavier than required. In fact, unlike other anchors, it will set better in very soft mud with NO CHAIN AT ALL. Having done a LOT of testing is soft mud, I know this for established fact. You do need to use long scope to set. You can shorten up later.



The other interesting thing about Fortress anchors is that once set at long scope, they resist uplift better than any other style, not just by a little, but by a lot. This is why they can be a bugger to break out--you can't have it both ways. This is also why shortening up is OK after power setting.

This is really interesting and I’m sure I’ll have an opportunity to use it at some point. Thanks!

When is the book coming out?

[Mike Banks]

If it were I, I would keep the separate rope rode and add a kellet to the chain part--about a metre or two from the end of the shorter length of chain. One can make them up cheaply from a set of training weights and a large threaded eye-bolt to pass through the centre of the weights. Failing that, I have used a large kettle weight or two chained together and shackled to the chain

When a hard pull comes, the weights lift from the sea bed--giving a much gentler hold with less jerking on the anchor as a vessel surges backwards against the rode. Using a kellet is a softer option than using all chain rode for your second anchor--and has the same effect or better in keeping the pull on the anchor lower down towards the sea bed.

Many complaints about anchor holding come from inadequate weight of chain, or failure to understand that anchors are designed to have long heavy rodes linking them to a vessel, and that the depth of water greatly affects holding power, making a kellet an even more desirable addition. Long rode, kellet at end or near end of chain. Use TWO shackles if the chain link is not large enough. The strain on the kellet is usually not much more than its own weight

[Thumbs Up]

These Fortress anchors have an adjustable setting angle 32 degrees and 45 degrees. The 45 degree setting is for soft mud. Soft mud is the bottom that some new generation anchors like to drag in. So if you are using the Fortress only for soft mud you should keep it assembled in the 45 degree configuration right? Does anyone disagree?

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

These Fortress anchors have an adjustable setting angle 32 degrees and 45 degrees. The 45 degree setting is for soft mud. Soft mud is the bottom that some new generation anchors like to drag in. So if you are using the Fortress only for soft mud you should keep it assembled in the 45 degree configuration right? Does anyone disagree?

I've tested at both 32 and 45 degrees. The honest answer is that "soft mud" is hard to define, and the presence of shells or layers can change things. If it sets, 45 is better, but setting is less certain than 32. This also depends on size (45 works more consistently in larger sizes).



A tough call IMO. For general use, I like 32 even in soft mud. It is enough hold and sets easily. I would use 45 if a hurricane was coming and I couldn't run.

[FL Dan]

To think outside the box... Many years ago there were very well done articles by a gentleman referred to as Capt. Wil on a trawler site. He did a lot of trial and error research on anchoring, primarily in the soft bottom of the Chesapeake. He had excellent results with the Fortress, but his opinion of a best all around anchor was the SuperMax. The "outside the box" part...for the soft stuff he used wire rope, no chain. His results convinced him that the chain tended to "float" on the mud and actually be a detriment to deep penetration down to something solid. He handled the wire rope with leather gloves and ran a parallel section of rope rode to use on the windlass for the last 50 feet or so. His articles are probably still available online but I've long ago lost my bookmark for them. I don’t recall whether or not he switched to chain for more "normal" bottom.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Suijin

This is really interesting and I’m sure I’ll have an opportunity to use it at some point. Thanks!

When is the book coming out?

About a month. A whole lot of testing and head scratching went into it. I will also admit to a certain Chesapeake Bay and brown water slant. I think I felt coral and blue lagoons had been well covered in other books.


[Imagine how impractical some of this would have been with a steel anchor and all-chain rode. Multiple anchors held the boat stationary during testing.]


[A lot of this was involved.]

[noelex 77]

The steel Spade is an excellent anchor, but does have a little less surface area than some of the other new generation designs. Consequently it does a little worse in very soft soupy substrates. Normally oversizing slightly will make up for this deficiency and I am surprised you are having problems.

Fortress/Danforth anchors have outstanding holding in these very soft substrates, but in my view they are not a great option when there is a risk of a significant change in the direction of pull. So I would exersise some caution when using this type of anchor as a primary. The FX-85 is only light but is physically a large anchor. It is worth making a rough cardboard mock up to check where it may fit, if you want to store two anchors at the bow.

The Fortress is fine with minimal chain, but you do always need to be careful about abrasion when using primarly rope rode overnight.

When deploying the Fortress in a very soft, soupy substrate the technique can be important. If using chain there is a danger that this can sink down in the substrate lower than the anchor creating a very low angle of attack and preventing the Fortress from opening. It is worth applying some setting force at low scope (say 3:1). The low scope will lift the chain helping the anchor open and orient correctly.

This same problem, with the chain sinking below the anchor can sometimes cause difficulties with other anchor designs. The same technique is worth trying with your Spade, especially given your 12mm chain. This may solve the problem.

The other technique that can help with a soft substrate is applying the setting force slowly. Pausing, and allowing the substrate to consolidate, if possible, can also help. New generation anchors normally set so easily these techniques are not needed, but with very soft soupy mud some finesse is helpful even if using an anchor optimised for a very soft substrate.

[Unity]

Thank you all for solid advice and some good suggestions of things to try.

Originally Posted by noelex 77

The steel Spade is an excellent anchor, but does have a little less surface area than some of the other new generation designs. Consequently it does a little worse in very soft soupy substrates. Normally oversizing slightly will make up for this deficiency and I am surprised you are having problems.

Might you recommend a different modern anchor as my secondary that performs better in the muck instead of the Fortress on the bow? Another strategy would be two equal sized but different style anchors in bow - which would allow for occasional bohemian anchoring (I think that’s what it is called, setting one anchor to wind and a second 180 degrees off, to limit swing not to add holding)

I’ll still have a Fortress (smaller) on stern for kedge but nothing to use as a primary.

[JOHNMARDALL]

Originally Posted by captstu

I had a 50 kg Bruce as my primary anchor on my previous 43 foot cat. I often switched to an FX85 for appropriate bottoms.

Then someone suggested I shackle the FX 85 to the trip point of the Bruce with 6 feet of chain. From then on I did this whenever I was on the bottom unsuitable for the Bruce or were expecting heavy blow.

The results survived hurricane Wilma went almost every other boat and the Anchorage did not. The veer went over the boats.

My cat apparently ran down the anchor Rode and fetched up against the Bruce and the fortress. When I dove the anchor the next day you could see where the Bruce dragged around the fortress and finally reset on the other tack. The fortress turned it self into a potato chip while it held the boat in place.

The primary and storm bridals both broke, the anchor windless pulled out of its mount, and the chain held because a
Knot I put in the chain that jammed in the hawse pipe

The chain stretched but did not break.

The teaching from this experience is leave your primary anchor securely attached to its chain and rode. When the bottom or the conditions dictate the use of the fortress shackle onto the trip point of your primary anchor. Use sufficient Chain to clear the bow roller and just drop the fortress in the water. Are you 6 feet of chain between the Bruce and the fortress.

No chance of losing your primary anchor or shackle hardware with this technique. The Bruce and it shorter chain can be handed without a problem.

The resultant combination of the Bruce and your plow style anchor Will hold under most conditions. Less work, less risk, and better holding. Even if your primary anchor doesn’t hold it provides a nice hundred pound weight to keep the Bruce set on the bottom.

Fortress replaced the potato chip pieces of my anger under their lifetime warranty at no charge. They also gave me a hat to remember the incident.

Dear Captain Stuart,


Thanks for this interesting post. I haven't used this "two anchors on one rode" approach and may give it a try. A few questions:


1. When you say "trip point" of the Bruce, what do you mean? Is it the location on the rode at water-level when the Bruce breaks out of the bottom?
2. When you bring this two-anchor set up back onto the boat, are you grabbing the secondary chain rode with a snubber and chain hook, then reaching over the bow roller to undo the shackle, before pulling the secondary anchor onto the deck by hand?
3. In the incident when the windlass pulled out of the deck, were you using a chain stopper or snubber? If yes, did everything pull out of the deck?


Thanks in advance
John Mardall
Vetus Maxwell Boat Equipment

[sck5]

Switch anchor rodes on the anchors? What a pain. I keep the chain on the rocna and the chain/rope on the Fortress. You dont have to worry about chafe all that much when the bottom calls for a Fortress. Having said that, I just use the rocna on the chain pretty nearly 100% of the time. Havent ever dragged enough in muck to make me want to up anchor and switch it around.

[captstu]

John,

The trip point on my Bruce is. Where the shank makes a 90 degree turn toward the fluke. Many folks attach a float line there to mark the anchor location and to pull up a deep set anchor. (Tripping it) that is otherwise hard to recover N.Y. hand.

When I deploy an all chain rode, I keep 25’ or so of chain in reserve. A bridle is shackled to each end of the bow beam that fixed between the two hulls. It is roughly an equilateral triangle, the 25’ bow beam and two 25’ legs. At the apex on the legs, I place a KONG anchor grabber that is, in turned ‘bitten’ to the rode that is then relaxed until the bridle/chain attachment is well under water and the chain is slack. This bridle is permanently shackled to the bow beam that is attached to the hulls.

The storm bridle is cleated to the two mid-ship cleats and has 2 40’ legs, also attached to a KONG chain grabber, just behind the primary bridle.

Both are 5/8 since that is the size required by KONG for 5/16 G43 chain.

Both bridles broke - 4 separate breaks since short lengths were still attached to their respective chain grabbers. The KONGs were undamaged.

I presume after the bridle broke, the load was taken by the windless. It was undamaged but it’s factory mount came off the boat.

There was an overhand knot in the chain intended to save the boat. It did but jamming in the hawse pipe that held undamaged.

The chain stretched and could not be recovered by the windless. I recovered part by hand and the rest with the spinnaker halyard.

[captstu]

Sorry, I missed the recovery question.

The windless recovers the primary anchor as usual.

This leaves the fortress hanging in the water on 6’ of chain. I just motor slowly out of the anchorage until I get to a safe place.

At that point, I go forward and take a line attached to the bow about 4’ from the roller and loop it under the 6’ chain. I pill the line until I can reach the fortress and lift the fortress to its hook on th boat’s seagull striker. Easy to do, hard to describe.

The important thing is that after disconnecting the bridle, most of the recovery is from the helm, as a result, I still have all my fingers and toes.