Switch chain or separate rode when switching anchors?

[Unity]

Sorry for YAAT (yet-another-anchor-thread) but I just spent a couple hours googling the forums and couldn’t find an answer to my question...

I have a 52 ft boat, 100 lb oversized Spade bower on 300 feet of 7/16 (12mm) chain. The Spade is fantastic ... except when the bottom is that soft mucky crap. Then it’s time for something else, which I’m going to use an oversized Fortress (FX-85). I will have 400 feet of 1” 8-plait plus 50 feet of 7/16 chain as a backup/secondary rode. Plus, fwiw, there is a smaller stern fortress for kedge etc.

I have read and generally agree that rather than fooling with two anchors being set, I will instead switch anchors as bottom dictates (between two oversized anchors). But what is better - moving the all chain rode to the Fortress and getting the mechanical benefits of chain (and windlass), or deploy the Fortress on the 8-plait (and retrieve using the capstan on the windlass)? Any reason not to switch the chain to whichever anchor is currently my primary? Of course I’d secure the anchors on the bow independent of the chain/rode so low risk of accidental anchor loss (no such thing as no risk!)

I’d still want the other rode in case I have to abandon (float) the primary chain and switch to the backup rode until I can later retrieve it. So this is about technique and not cost.

[billknny]

I would not switch rodes to the anchors.

I assume you are using the Fortress in places where the bottom is soft and muddy, so the risk from chafe on "hard stuff" is minimal. Not zero, just low.

I know the math and theory behind the advantages of an all chain rode, but on boat-sized chain (as opposed to ship-sized) the effect of the chain catenary is vastly over rated in the sailing literature. In a blow the chain will come bar tight LONG before you approach the breakout loading on a modern, well set anchor.

We see our chain come tight to the snubber in winds of between 25 to 35 knots. That means there is NO catenary at the point where people think it is supposed to be helpful.

There are lots of really good reasons to use an all chain rode. Ease of retrival on the windlass being an important one! But dramatically better holding... not so much.

[thinwater]

You will need to set at very long scope, but once well-set, Fortress is one of the very few anchors than handles up-lift well (based on testing).

[Mike OReilly]

I used to do what you propose, routinely switching between a CQR and a Danforth. I switched the primary rode when doing this, but I didn’t have an easy way to managing two separate rodes.

As long as you can run and manage both rodes cleanly I don’t think it really matters. I prefer all chain all the time, but it sounds like your secondary rode would work under most conditions.

[Unity]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I used to do what you propose, routinely switching between a CQR and a Danforth. I switched the primary rode when doing this, but I didn’t have an easy way to managing two separate rodes.

That is the basic problem. It’s a pain pulling rode on the capstan with the resulting mess on deck to then stow in a large bucket or bag (50
chain plus 350 feet of 1” is a lot of rode!). I could divide my anchor locker but I already have occasional chain pileups and I worry a divider will make it even harder to squeeze into the locker to deal with any windlass maintenance. Having said that, the locker is quite large so maybe a removable shelf or something like that will help.... still won’t just drop into the locker but would at least help with stowage.

[Suijin]

There’s no good reason not to use the same all chain rode for both anchors. I’ve used an FX-28 on my boat with all 5/16” chain and it performed great.

I have 300’ of 3/4” rope rode sitting next to the chain in the locker, with its own hawsepipe behind the capstan, so very convenient, but I regard it as backup only.

As for the catenary of chain not providing shock absorption in high winds that’s true. That’s when you break out the 40’+ snubber line. It’s not a reason to *not* use all chain.

[Cheechako]

50 feet of 7/16 chain is awfully heavy to lift by hand.

[maine50]

I seem to remember Fortress recommended not using much chain as the anchor doesn't get a chance to "set" before the chain drags on the bottom.
You may want to research this possibility.--

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Unity

That is the basic problem. It’s a pain pulling rode on the capstan with the resulting mess on deck to then stow in a large bucket or bag (50
chain plus 350 feet of 1” is a lot of rode!). I could divide my anchor locker but I already have occasional chain pileups and I worry a divider will make it even harder to squeeze into the locker to deal with any windlass maintenance. Having said that, the locker is quite large so maybe a removable shelf or something like that will help.... still won’t just drop into the locker but would at least help with stowage.

Then I’d definitely just use the same rode. Switching over is usually not a big deal, and much easier than hauling and managing all that extra rode.

Still might be a good project to divide your main chain locker (it’s on my project list for my current boat as well), but there’s no downside to using your main rode with both anchors.

[Unity]

Originally Posted by maine50

I seem to remember Fortress recommended not using much chain as the anchor doesn't get a chance to "set" before the chain drags on the bottom.
You may want to research this possibility.--

Interesting. I did some googling on this but found nothing other than the "minimum" from Fortress of 6 feet chain per 25 feet of depth. But I went ahead and sent a question off to Fortress Anchors, and I'll make sure to update when/if I get an answer. Thanks!

[Unity]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Then I’d definitely just use the same rode. Switching over is usually not a big deal, and much easier than hauling and managing all that extra rode.

Still might be a good project to divide your main chain locker (it’s on my project list for my current boat as well), but there’s no downside to using your main rode with both anchors.

My thinking exactly, on both accounts. And I like the idea that on a regular basis I'll be inspecting my shackle, as I think that is the weakest link in all of this (and I do not believe in swivels).

[captstu]

I had a 50 kg Bruce as my primary anchor on my previous 43 foot cat. I often switched to an FX85 for appropriate bottoms.

Then someone suggested I shackle the FX 85 to the trip point of the Bruce with 6 feet of chain. From then on I did this whenever I was on the bottom unsuitable for the Bruce or were expecting heavy blow.

The results survived hurricane Wilma went almost every other boat and the Anchorage did not. The veer went over the boats.

My cat apparently ran down the anchor Rode and fetched up against the Bruce and the fortress. When I dove the anchor the next day you could see where the Bruce dragged around the fortress and finally reset on the other tack. The fortress turned it self into a potato chip while it held the boat in place.

The primary and storm bridals both broke, the anchor windless pulled out of its mount, and the chain held because a
Knot I put in the chain that jammed in the hawse pipe

The chain stretched but did not break.

The teaching from this experience is leave your primary anchor securely attached to its chain and rode. When the bottom or the conditions dictate the use of the fortress shackle onto the trip point of your primary anchor. Use sufficient Chain to clear the bow roller and just drop the fortress in the water. Are you 6 feet of chain between the Bruce and the fortress.

No chance of losing your primary anchor or shackle hardware with this technique. The Bruce and it shorter chain can be handed without a problem.

The resultant combination of the Bruce and your plow style anchor Will hold under most conditions. Less work, less risk, and better holding. Even if your primary anchor doesn’t hold it provides a nice hundred pound weight to keep the Bruce set on the bottom.

Fortress replaced the potato chip pieces of my anger under their lifetime warranty at no charge. They also gave me a hat to remember the incident.

[Briney Bug]

A few thoughts... keep in mind that you can do either, whichever is best under the circumstances. If chafe is a concern, larger the line's diameter, the more resistant to chafe it is, so with your rope rode, if chafe is a concern use a larger diameter line. On our 34'/28000 lb trawler, our everyday fiber rode is 7/8, but our storm fiber rode is 1 1/16". As the ABYC standards recommend, a rode's tensile strength should be at least 8 times the maximum load on it. By the way, this size rope will not only have plenty of stretch, it'll have more stretch than a smaller diameter line.
A couple of thoughts about using your spade anchor in mud: 1. It is not unusual to have to drag an anchor through mud 40+ feet before it starts to dig in. 2. If it won't set, shorten the scope to 2-3:1 to set it. This is especially applicable to Fortress and Danforth anchors. 3. In mud the anchor will continue to dig down until it meets enough resistance to set, this can be 10+ feet. This depth also needs to be taken into account when calculating scope. 4. In mud, anchors that land upside down often do not re-orientate themselves so that they can dig in and as a result just pull along on top of the seabed upside down. If you pull the anchor more than 40-50 feet without it setting, consider retrieving, and then re-deploying it. 5. Good deployment technique is often important in mud.
In the Chesapeake Bay mud during the anchor tests a couple of years ago, the Spade anchor, and in our experience, the Super Max anchor are the only anchors which seems to always orient themselves to dig in when deployed in mud, so I'm suspicious that your problem doesn't lie with the anchor so much, but instead, look to your deployment and setting techniques.
Rudy Sechez

[Unity]

Originally Posted by captstu

I had a 50 kg Bruce as my primary anchor on my previous 43 foot cat. I often switched to an FX85 for appropriate bottoms.

Then someone suggested I shackle the FX 85 to the trip point of the Bruce with 6 feet of chain. From then on I did this whenever I was on the bottom unsuitable for the Bruce or were expecting heavy blow.

The results survived hurricane Wilma went almost every other boat and the Anchorage did not. The veer went over the boats.

My cat apparently ran down the anchor Rode and fetched up against the Bruce and the fortress. When I dove the anchor the next day you could see where the Bruce dragged around the fortress and finally reset on the other tack. The fortress turned it self into a potato chip while it held the boat in place.

The primary and storm bridals both broke, the anchor winless pulled out of its mount, and the chain held because a
Knot I put in the chain that jammed in the hawse pipe

The chain stretched but did not break.

The teaching from this experience is leave your primary anchor securely attached to its chain and rode. When the bottom or the conditions dictate the use of the fortress shackle onto the trip point of your primary anchor. Use sufficient Chain to clear the bow roller and just drop the fortress in the water. Are you 6 feet of chain between the Bruce and the fortress.

No chance of losing your primary anchor or shackle hardware with this technique. The Bruce and it shorter chain can be handed without a problem.

The resultant combination of the Bruce and your plow style anchor Will hold under most conditions. Less work, less risk, and better holding. Even if your primary anchor doesn’t hold it provides a nice hundred pound weight to keep the Bruce set on the bottom.

Fortress replaced the potato chip pieces of my anger under their lifetime warranty at no charge. They also gave me a hat to remember the incident.

Just to make sure I understand given my equipment … the resulting configuration you are recommending is that the chain leaves the boat (on bridal), goes down on full chain to the Spade. In "front" of the Spade, attached to the Spade trip, is some chain and then the Fortress. Two anchors in series, Fortress up front, Spade following. Is that what you are recommending?


Why would you attach to the trip? It would seem if the Spade started to release and the Fortress held (which seems very hard to set the Fortress in this configuration), the Fortress would enable the space to trip, no?

Perhaps I just misunderstand.

[Unity]

Originally Posted by Briney Bug

A few thoughts... keep in mind that you can do either, whichever is best under the circumstances. If chafe is a concern, larger the line's diameter, the more resistant to chafe it is, so with your rope rode, if chafe is a concern use a larger diameter line. On our 34'/28000 lb trawler, our everyday fiber rode is 7/8, but our storm fiber rode is 1 1/16". As the ABYC standards recommend, a rode's tensile strength should be at least 8 times the maximum load on it. By the way, this size rope will not only have plenty of stretch, it'll have more stretch than a smaller diameter line.
A couple of thoughts about using your spade anchor in mud: 1. It is not unusual to have to drag an anchor through mud 40+ feet before it starts to dig in. 2. If it won't set, shorten the scope to 2-3:1 to set it. This is especially applicable to Fortress and Danforth anchors. 3. In mud the anchor will continue to dig down until it meets enough resistance to set, this can be 10+ feet. This depth also needs to be taken into account when calculating scope. 4. In mud, anchors that land upside down often do not re-orientate themselves so that they can dig in and as a result just pull along on top of the seabed upside down. If you pull the anchor more than 40-50 feet without it setting, consider retrieving, and then re-deploying it. 5. Good deployment technique is often important in mud.
In the Chesapeake Bay mud during the anchor tests a couple of years ago, the Spade anchor, and in our experience, the Super Max anchor are the only anchors which seems to always orient themselves to dig in when deployed in mud, so I'm suspicious that your problem doesn't lie with the anchor so much, but instead, look to your deployment and setting techniques.
Rudy Sechez

No disagreement that technique is paramount. I have one anchorage I visit a lot that is soft mud, so I've had many chances to work on this. I generally set the anchor, with just blowing backwards or maybe very slight reverse, at around 2:1 or 3:1 and wait a while. Then I back down a bit more, and release more chain (say 5:1 or 6:1). I sit there at maybe 1000 rpm for a while, and then increase power in reverse. I do see some drag, like you suggest, but then hold hard. But when I then increase to around 3000 rpm, I find I often pull out the anchor, even after 5+ minutes at 2000. But I reset, and try again, and eventually I do get a hold. It can take many attempts. One time, after a successful hold a 3K-4K rpm for many minutes and felt great about the set, and having a good 6:1 scope (couldn't do more due to crowds) in the middle of the night the wind switched 180 and blew hard, and off went the anchor alarm and indeed we were dragging.

Perhaps something is wrong with my set? All ears to learn how I might do it better. But that is why I'm thinking about adding the Fortress to the kit, though I do worry some about that very same 180 degree shift - which Fortress is known to not be as good at.