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Old 18-10-2010, 19:18   #31
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It hardest to get it started...the first three. The third strand may get a bit weird on the first tuck. Give it a try. May take a few false starts. Number the strands to help avoid getting out of order.

It's way easier with new line.

Keep twisting and pulling the strands tight.

It all works out.
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Old 19-10-2010, 12:23   #32
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I have a friend on Laquetti who has built several boats. He mounts a Char Lyne orbit motor on the foredeck with the shaft vertical, with a drum on it. Along side the engine he mounts a power steering pump connected to the Char Lyne with hydraulic lines. When he wants to raise his anchor , he engages the pump which is on a swing bracket and is driven by a v belt off the engine. The drum turns , he walks to the foredeck , takes a few turns of the anchor rode around the drum, lifts his anchor, flips the rode off, then walks aft and releases the pump. The drum is turning the whole time, until he releases the pump.. Extremely simple, and inexpensive. .
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Old 16-09-2011, 00:01   #33
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Re: Splicing Rope to Chain

As someone who possibly did the 1st ever production Auto R2C splices way back in the very early days of these winches, has made 1000's, seen and tested 100's of used ones, has his splice feature in a few winch makers manuals and promos along with the odd rope companies as well, written a few papers on them some of which is quoted above, I can assure you the back splice method is by far the best.

The 'extended splice', as it's being called here is called to by us and the winch makers as the 'Winch Killer' splice and for good reasons. Just don't go there, it's proven to be a poor choice.... and weaker than a good back splice.
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Old 18-09-2011, 19:49   #34
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Re: Splicing Rope to Chain

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
I agree that tight turns induce added stress.
Wrong, and I did not say that exactly. It is tight turns, in relation to the diameter of the rope. By unlaying the rope the strands all carry the load equally, rather than the inside strands being unloaded. The secret is in the unlaying of the rope to 3 strands.

There are the same number of strands (3) with an eye splice as there are with the back splice. The thimble is to protect against chafe due to movement (there is no movement between a back splice and the link) and to provide a longer radius (not needed, as explained above). Thus, an eye splice has no advantage.

Don't fight it. Listen to GMac and every windlass manufacturer.
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Old 19-09-2011, 00:13   #35
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Re: Splicing Rope to Chain

The added stress of a tighter turn is commonly raised as it sure would appear that way, it sure did to us in the early days and was something that we all though would be a serious issue. Add in the fact some of the newest fibres sure do not like tight turns and I certainly can see why Lancelot, and many others, can think that. But Thinwater has pretty much hit it on the head as to why not.

The small eye splice way is probably more prone to radius issues, even if still not that high, as you could almost point load the rope if the whole rode was under big load. It would also be a lot easier to unbalance the rope doing it this way and an unbalanced rope is best to avoid, it's generally not critical but 'best practice' is to avoid that if at all possible. Besides eye splice are commonly replaced due to issues going thru the winches. It'll work but in our opinion it's a poor cousin to a good backsplice. But beware as a eye splice does come with chafe issues, potentially very nasty ones, so Thinwater is right again here, to stop chafe in eye splices someone invented thimbles.

But after extensive testing it was found a well done R2C backsplice has the exact same load capability as a well done eye or thimble splice +/- next to nothing. Over the years I've dissected a lot of used R2C interfaces ('interface' used as it just sounds way cooler and sounds way more expensive so when we charge just a few bucks for that splice people think they got a hell deal ) and found no rope worries. Yes sometimes the rope will look like total excrement and rusty as but that's only staining and nothing like as spooky as it can sure look. But that heavy staining probably does mean it's time to chop that end link of chain off and resplice. All that rust could indicate the link under the splice is unhappy.

I have run into a few, 5 or 6, over the years where that end link has been heavily eroded. Why we aren't exactly sure as there is no pattern to it more than 'the odd one just does'. But if put to the test we would probably be expecting that end link to fail. Unfortunate it's hard to dissect them, find a dodgy link and then be able to load test.

I can say with confidence that over the many years I've been at it I haven't really seen anything that spooky with any R2C interfaces that didn't look a little spooky before I pulled it apart. I'd also say by far the most common cause of failure at that interface, and it isn't that common a failure point anyway, is a lack of the users looking at it at regular intervals. Get a small bur in the gypsy and it can start to pull the splice apart, a sharpish rock, shellfish can also do that. Once you have a end sticking out it's easier to catch on something and go bad faster. Watch for that as it can happen quick if the stars all line up badly, but again not that common.

I see lots of theories, doom n gloom like stories on the interweb and a lot are just wrong or wrongly attributed. Seen a few, which while sounding good, just can't happen and the odd one that is totally impossible. But they gain legs are before you know it it's the 'truth'. People do need to be aware there is a massive and growing pile of info on the web that is scare mongering, just wrong, just an opinion written to look like fact or right but the theory and process is all good just they used the totally wrong products and then you have the 'cunning plans', by that I mean people trying to reinvent the wheel and in doing so make something simple complex, which often leads to issues due to that.

So after that small dribble I can see why Lancalot and others think why they do but testing and history has proven it to be not the worry they expect.

K I S S people.

Note: I do refer to 'well done' and 'good' splices a lot. The difference between good and bad is often not much to look at but a lot if you are the anchor winch that has to deal with it. Also I always assume good quality products are being used. Go cheap and nasty and that does change the playing field, often by a LOT, and some of those products do come with their own set of issues, which are added to the possible problems list not in lieu of.


Well written post Thinwater...... I'll keep you in mind next time I need more staff
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Old 19-09-2011, 01:22   #36
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Re: Splicing Rope to Chain

I'm certainly no expert, but... I'm currently on my second circumnavigation and have connected rope to chain by using a "Shackle Splice" as shown in one of the Brian Toss books the entire time. Essentially a back splice on the last link of our chain.

The only problem is the limiting inside diameter of the link, which dictates the maximum diameter of rope to pass fairly through the link.

I've taken it a step further by installing - for lack of a better name - a "Special Double C link" - commonly used for joining two pieces of chain... in which two C-Shaped halves are inserted through the last links and four protruding tips are peened in order to hold the assembled link in place. West Marine carries them. But the "special" link I use is one that allows a 3'8" chain to be joined with a 1/2" chain... sort of an oval teardrop-shape. But in my application - I am able to do the Shackle Splice with a considerably larger line. By using this link - I can easily pass the three strands of a 3/4" rope fairly through the last "special" link of my 3/8" BBB chain.

The only place I've ever been able to locate these special adapter links is at commercial fishing supply businesses... such as Casamar. I believe they're used in making-up nets on the big purse seiners in the tuna fleets.

I've never seen test data concerning the overall strength of these sorts of chain links. But in normal use - I rarely ever need to put-out more than 200' of chain. Yet I did put out all 350' of available rode during a 65 kt squall in Tahiti two years ago... which held us in place all night with enough cantinary to dampen & minimize the tensile load on the cleats.

Again - I'm no expert - but this method of splicing rope to chain has worked well for me during the past 17 years and 45,000 miles of gallivanting about the globe... with an anchor rode I can trust in a tempest and pass smoothly through our windlass and hawse pipe.

It works for me in all conditions... and that's all I know.

To Life!

Kirk
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