Setting Two Anchors

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Post 21 seems to come from a vendor.

Craig Smith posted #21 as well as a number of other posts on this thread. It says "Commercial Vendor" under his username and his affiliation with Rocna is shown in his signature. Except when he is out sailing with Peter, Craig is quite active on anchor topics on a number of fora.

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Kellets not only (are supposed to) keep the rode down in dramatic conditions but also, in less windy situations, to limit the range of our swing in the anchorage

Like several others, some based on analysis (noting that conclusions from quantitative analysis don't mean theory - they mean calculations) and others on practical experience, I find that kellets of practical size and weight have limited if any value in--as you say--dramatic conditions. I don't recall anyone stating that a kellet is helpful at reducing bobbing about in particularly light air.

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Rocna is better than CQR. So should I go without my rusty trusty CQR if I do not have Rocna??? This would mean going without anchor. Well well. And the same applies to kellets.

With respect I think you are mixing apples and oranges. For purposes of effect I have suggested that the best use of a CQR is as a mailbox post. *grin* In truth, a CQR is an adequate anchor. People have hung off them with success for many many years, punctuated by difficulties in getting a set and the odd drag. The Delta is a better anchor. It sets more easily and holds better relative to a CQR in every bottom I have anchored in with both. The latest generation of anchors including Rocna, Spade, and Raya (the manufacturer of which appears to have closed up shop) are significantly better yet.

What I find difficult to understand is the thought process of sailors who will spend money to replace functional equipment like refrigerators, solar panels, and assorted electronics with newer, updated versions and don't apply the same logic to anchors.

Indeed it seems to me that if you own a CQR then NOW is the time to upgrade while there is still a reasonable market for the used one. Later you may well find it has no value at all other than as a mailbox post. *grin*

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Maybe the best attitude is to read all the data (first) and opinions (why not), then go on a good cruise and test the often contradictory THEORIES.

We are talking about data, not theory. Unfortunately a truly valid empirical evaluation is unlikely. Who will take a wide range of anchors on a cruise? Will you take the five or six mainstream anchors along and test them day after day, recording all the relevant environmental data? Anchor tests, as much as they generate heated discussion, are about all we have. Based on any of them we can argue about what is best, but there is no question that each succeeding generation of anchors performs better than the preceding.

With respect to kellets, it is worth going back to the link to Fraysse's entirely independent analysis posted earlier. If you struggle with the math that doesn't mean the analysis and its conclusions are not valid. Ask for help, or find someone you trust that does understand the methodology.

[Christian Van H]

It has been suggested that tying a few of your heavier guns aboard to the rode may significantly increase your holding power... anyone know what caliber would work best? Also, how do you retrieve them without shooting yourself? When mine come over the bow roller they tend to go off...

[Healer52]

Originally Posted by Christian Van H

It has been suggested that tying a few of your heavier guns aboard to the rode may significantly increase your holding power... anyone know what caliber would work best? Also, how do you retrieve them without shooting yourself? When mine come over the bow roller they tend to go off...

I use two 42# caronnades...too short-ranged for anything else.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Christian Van H

anyone know what caliber would work best?

I have a plastic bucket I filled with concrete and put a U bolt in it. It would fire nicely from a 15 inch gun off the USS Missouri.

Its not worth a pinch of poop in a blow. The thing is like a ping pong ball attached to anchor chain and all it can do is screw the situation totally if I need to do an emergency move in a storm.

The time we really do need simplicity is when the wind is cranking and the boat's a draggin'!



Mark

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Healer52

Well, I suppose we can all make all the mistakes ourselves, too. If a vendor gives me expert advice that makes sense, I'll tend to accept it. Nothing personal, of course.

But then, I've always tended to believe signs that say "Hot" or "Wet Paint".

Yes, and it is a big "if".

My experience with (other) vendors is that they are all very honest and good people trying very hard to provide the best lifestyle for their families. They do so by selling things.

(Again, nothing personal or case specific, talking only about the principles of making informed decisions).

And to call a spade a spade (pun unintended):

Would I buy a Rocna (Manson, Spade, etc)?
- I would not. I will! And the biggest one I can handle.

Will I use a kellet with it?
- If I find I am better off with than without one, I will.

No matter what a vendor says.

b.

[kb79]

for what it's worth, i'm a mechanical engineer and pretty well versed in stuff like static forces. everything craig said makes perfect sense to me, vendor or otherwise - i'll be taking off without kellets

[Healer52]

Originally Posted by kb79

for what it's worth, i'm a mechanical engineer and pretty well versed in stuff like static forces. everything craig said makes perfect sense to me, vendor or otherwise - i'll be taking off without kellets

Yeah. I was an engineer before medical school (Astro) and while I haven't kept up with it all I can't find any glaring errors.

But, if someone wants to re-invent the wheel, go for it!

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by kb79

for what it's worth, i'm a mechanical engineer and pretty well versed in stuff like static forces. everything craig said makes perfect sense to me, vendor or otherwise - i'll be taking off without kellets

OMG, another one?

Why not test things yourselves before you scrap them on theoretical basis?

What Craig said makes sense, and AFTER field tests prove he is right, we can bury our kellets.

After, why before?

;-)))
b.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Healer52

Yeah. I was an engineer before medical school (Astro) and while I haven't kept up with it all I can't find any glaring errors.

We don't use kellets . . . but there is an error in the engineering analysis . . . which is that anchoring situations (espically storm situations) are very dynamic. The bow can and does move quite a bit on three axis, and this is essentially a static analysis. I have not looked at in a few years but I remember there was allowance for a little dynamic action on one axis.

I believe that in this case, the difference between static and dynamic engineering makes quite a bit of difference. This is also one of the problem with most anchor testing - they essentially place a static load on the anchor rather than the 'real world' surging & shock loading.

[Healer52]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

OMG, another one?

Why not test things yourselves before you scrap them on theoretical basis?

What Craig said makes sense, and AFTER field tests prove he is right, we can bury our kellets.

After, why before?

;-)))
b.

Well, as one of my engineering profs used to say, "The reason we have theories is because not everything is a fact".

Let us know how your testing goes...of course you'll do controlled pull testing in a variety of conditions with and without kellets and a variety of anchor designs, and with a load cell....

[kb79]

doesn't she look sexy?

no kellets required

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by kb79

doesn't she look sexy?

no kellets required

YEAH!!! But the new 88# Delta I just mounted on the bow of my 40' Silverton looks like a MEAN DOG ANXIOUS TO GET A DEATH GRIP on the ocean bottom; no kellets needed

[SaltyMonkey]

Jesu, is this thread still going on? Kudos for those that brought up commercial interests in the analysis (kept my mouth shut), the dynamic nature of the problem, and the need for experimentation to prove out the calcs. But, alas, that Rocna on KB79's boat does look much more pretty than ugly Kellets, even though it put a chip in his gelcoat midway down the bow.

[Curmudgeon]

Well, at the moment I sit here drenched inside the lagoon in Vineyard Haven harbor after using my dinghy to put out my second anchor. My CQR held last night, but the last few sustained gusts have been over 35 knots and the poor guy next to me not only dragged anchor, but also had his genny unfurl and start flogging iitself to death.

The "experts" say that having a second anchor out in a "v" off the bow doesn't help that much. But it can't hurt, and if I do drag, I will drag more slowly. Wish I had taken the trouble to deploy the second anchor last night, when the conditions weren't quite so bad.

[PamlicoTraveler]

I believe the 180 degree setting of anchors is the most effective in strong tidal areas. I would think the 45 degree approach from the bow could likely foul the rodes, and so I have never done it. I have 150' of chain and hope that will hold.