Rope - Chain Splice

[Tony B]

There is something bad wrong with your splicing method. I can understand a rope being cut, worn, jammed, slipping, etc, but not unraveling or un-laying. If a chain splice or eye-splice is made properly, there is no way it can be undone by a gypsy.
You must have at least 5 wraps in just about any man made fibers because they are slippery. Actually, 5 wraps should be enough
I worked several years on 100 ton vessels and we used both nylon lines and polypro lines. They have broken due to stress beyond their limits but never unraveled.

[Tony B]

Originally Posted by RThynes

...... What is happening now, and I may have not stated it perfectly by saying it was unlaying, is the rope is untwisting "loosing it's lay" adjacent the splice. .
A swivel at the chain/rope mating would probably help but it would not go around the gypsy.

The swivel should go between the chain and the anchor and not between the rope and the chain.

[transmitterdan]

If the OP would include a picture of the splice I'm willing to bet the answer will become self evident.

[ryon]

Originally Posted by RThynes

The first replacement of the splice may have been a little short which contributed to the problem. When I replaced that splice I cut off the limp section so I had sound rope to work with and I ran the splice out two additional tucks, tapered the splice and sewed each end down. What is happening now, and I may have not stated it perfectly by saying it was unlaying, is the rope is untwisting "loosing it's lay" adjacent the splice. So my next attempt will be to use the "long splice" method seemingly recommended by Toss.
A swivel at the chain/rope mating would probably help but it would not go around the gypsy.

I have trouble stating things even imperfectly! Hee hee. But I am still unsure what you have there. It's basically a back splice over the last link in your chain, with additional tucks, am I right? And the splice was okay, but the rope leading away from the splice was becoming untwisted (long-jawed). Sounds like more of a rope than a splice problem if this is correct. I went to the Brion Toss website to see if I could make any sense of the "long splice" you mention, but couldn't find it. I can't fathom (heh) how a longsplice would be used in this context. Do you have a link or a photo?

[RThynes]

Originally Posted by Tony B

The swivel should go between the chain and the anchor and not between the rope and the chain.

I'm aware of that but that is not where the twisting is happening it is at the chain/rope interface and having a swivel at the anchor won't deal with the problem.
I think part of the issue is slippage in the "gypsy" as the chain starts, the transition is a little bulky causing it to slip a little until the chain gets caught.
I just redid the splice using a method similar to long splice and as it is much more compact than the short or crown splice method perhaps it will run smoother.
We'll find out next week.

[RThynes]

Instead of using a Crown/Back splice the rope in unlayed ~2 1/2 feet then two strands are run through the chain link, the odd strand is then unlayed ~2' and one of the others is layed in it's place and then the ends are tucked 4-5 times, the strand left at the link is then tucked starting at the link 4-5 times so you have much less bulky splice that the standard Crown/Back splice.
I redid the splice using this method so we'll see how it does when we next get out but we'll probably be replacing the 3 strand rope rode with 8 or 12 strand plaited before next season.

Originally Posted by ryon

I have trouble stating things even imperfectly! Hee hee. But I am still unsure what you have there. It's basically a back splice over the last link in your chain, with additional tucks, am I right? And the splice was okay, but the rope leading away from the splice was becoming untwisted (long-jawed). Sounds like more of a rope than a splice problem if this is correct. I went to the Brion Toss website to see if I could make any sense of the "long splice" you mention, but couldn't find it. I can't fathom (heh) how a longsplice would be used in this context. Do you have a link or a photo?

[pbiJim]

Originally Posted by Tony B

The swivel should go between the chain and the anchor and not between the rope and the chain.

Why is that? Is it to prevent a twisted chain from jamming up the windlass? Is there another reason?

I had read of cases where swivels failed when attached directly to the anchor because of a sideways bending force & leverage of the anchor shank. In those cases, they recommended a short piece of chain (a few links) between the anchor & the swivel.

I'm trying to get my head around reasons why a swivel between the line & the chain would be a bad thing. I'm not coming up with anything convincing.

[pbiJim]

Originally Posted by Minggat

This is the part that jumps out at me. At least the "Poly" part.
Nice for making a line float. Not nice for abrasion or for... holding a splice. as far as I know, this sort of question never comes up with nylon.

Nylon is the overwhelming choice for anchor rode for a reason.

Or am I missing something?

I thought that Polyester was supposed to have much better abrasion resistance than Nylon. Is that not the case? Is a Poly/Dacron blend a different animal in that regard?

[ryon]

Originally Posted by RThynes

Instead of using a Crown/Back splice the rope in unlayed ~2 1/2 feet then two strands are run through the chain link, the odd strand is then unlayed ~2' and one of the others is layed in it's place and then the ends are tucked 4-5 times, the strand left at the link is then tucked starting at the link 4-5 times so you have much less bulky splice that the standard Crown/Back splice.
I redid the splice using this method so we'll see how it does when we next get out but we'll probably be replacing the 3 strand rope rode with 8 or 12 strand plaited before next season.

Thank you for accommodating me with the explanation! That splice had me baffled. I'm sure you are aware that the extremely short radius half-turn weakens the line considerably. Dropping one of the strands weakens it even more. I'm not as concerned about the splice as I am with the line itself. All the stress is concentrated in the small spot where it wraps around the link, which is then subjected to damage as it is gripped by your gypsy/wildcat, not to mention normal service and handling. I know you're not asking for this input, so I'll stifle and just wish you luck!

[ryon]

Originally Posted by pbiJim

Why is that? Is it to prevent a twisted chain from jamming up the windlass? Is there another reason?

I had read of cases where swivels failed when attached directly to the anchor because of a sideways bending force & leverage of the anchor shank. In those cases, they recommended a short piece of chain (a few links) between the anchor & the swivel.

I'm trying to get my head around reasons why a swivel between the line & the chain would be a bad thing. I'm not coming up with anything convincing.

My guess is that it wasn't twisting, but rather the separation of the strands by the weave of the splice that caused the unlaying of his line. Any actual twist would be distributed, not localized.

[pbiJim]

Originally Posted by ryon

My guess is that it wasn't twisting, but rather the separation of the strands by the weave of the splice that caused the unlaying of his line. Any actual twist would be distributed, not localized.

My guess would have been that the windlass was somehow getting the line at a cocked angle & rolling the twist open, but that is very much just a guess.

A short video clip of the line getting wound up would be most interesting to me.

[McGinnis]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

If the OP would include a picture of the splice I'm willing to bet the answer will become self evident.

[River Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Don L

Chain!!!!! I went to all chain partly so I didn't have to screw around with the splice anymore.

I did the same, no more switching from the capstan to the wheel on my Muir cougar.

[Tony B]

Originally Posted by pbiJim

Why is that? Is it to prevent a twisted chain from jamming up the windlass? Is there another reason?

I had read of cases where swivels failed when attached directly to the anchor because of a sideways bending force & leverage of the anchor shank. In those cases, they recommended a short piece of chain (a few links) between the anchor & the swivel.
.

The idea is that in order to lessen the un-laying of three strand rope there should be as much revolving and rotation of the entire rode as possible.

Also in your next post, the reason for using nylon instead of polyester is because of stretching. The greater the stretch, the better the shock absorbing ability thus reducing the shock load on your cleats. Polyester is meant to be used where stretch is not desirable.

Generally speaking, most people do not match their rode components. They assume the chain is the strongest component because it is steel and they don't check to see the actual working load and breaking strength.
This is an actual statistic I got from the USCG when boats went adrift and the components were retrieved and analyzed. The No. cause was the anchor line was in very poor condition.

[pbiJim]

Tony,
I understand that Nylon has a desirable stretch characteristic. I had been responding to a previous post where a person said that Nylon had better abrasion resistance than "poly" which I took to mean polyester.

In my mind, the best rode rig (other than all chain) would be a short piece of polyester from the deck cleat, through the chock & then attach to a long nylon line & then the chain. That would utilize the abrasion resistance of the polyester at the chock, where it is most needed & still give the advantage of the nylon's elasticity.

I'm still unclear about how putting the swivel at the anchor is better than putting it between the chain & the anchor. Your explanation is not making sense to me intuitively. Perhaps I'm just not understanding you?

Thanks,
Jim