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Old 25-04-2014, 16:30   #31
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Re: Rocna versus the world

[QUOTE=sneuman;1526934]
Quote:
Originally Posted by paccrest View Post

I'd be interested to see *objective* data, can you point me to some?
(And articles in cruising and sailing magazines don't count -- especially when the advertisement for Superanchor appears next to the article!)
You, too, perhaps didn't have the time to read my previous link, included below as well as two others.

INDEPENDENT testing, the stuff you're looking for.

And I agree, if not a Rocna, and if you don't like roll abrs, which BTW are great for keeping the anchor on the bow, then there are certainly other new gens.

CQRs have the least surface area of all anchors, and need to be upsized to hold any given boat size.

Same for Bruces.

Good luck.

Anchoring 101 Anchors & TEST Results of New Generation Anchors EXCELLENT & Important

Anchor Selection 101 includes good discussions of various system selections and pictures of new generation anchors on bowsprits both short and extended Roll bar anchors on bow roller Rocna Flix

Why NEW GEN Anchors are Better:

Anchors & TEST Results of New Generation Anchors EXCELLENT & Important

Please, please remember, we're tlaking primary bow anchors here. Of course, Danforth types are good for some conditions (one way current rivers, for exmaple) or for stern anchors.
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Old 25-04-2014, 17:07   #32
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Re: Rocna Versus the World

I second get a Spade or Ultra - the advantages of New Gen (which are real) but will still fit your bow.

Over the years, I've had Danforth, CQR, Bruce (genuine), Delta, Supreme, Spade, and Ultra. They all hold well very well once well set. But the last three are much more reliable in setting in different bottom types (and re-setting after a middle of the night wind change).

The Ultra is my current primary - I prefer it over my Manson Supreme secondary because it is easier to clean (no roll bar) and seems a bit better in grassy bottoms.
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Old 25-04-2014, 17:37   #33
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Re: Rocna Versus the World

This is just my 2 cents which is all its worth. I couldn't have been happier with my Delta and it really used to piss me off when I would see my friends trying to keep up with the joneses and buying new gen anchors. Then a company gave me a free Rocna, I tried it because as I writer I figured I should know. What is my impression now after 25 years of dropping every hook known to man??? You will have to pry it out of my cold dead hands. My fist night with my new Rocna was in a full gale upwind form a rock jetty, that night I coined the term Rocna'd to sleep. I only have about 120 days experience so I'm just learning this anchor but I will put in another 200 this year and see where she goes. As of now my only complaint is that they are ugly beasts. As for sizing...If you are over sizing a new gen anchor I'm sorry to say it but... waste of money...You know the old saying, if you don't know what type of knot to tie tie lots of them.
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Old 25-04-2014, 17:51   #34
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Re: Rocna Versus the World

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Originally Posted by Barefootnavigat View Post
This is just my 2 cents which is all its worth. I couldn't have been happier with my Delta and it really used to piss me off when I would see my friends trying to keep up with the joneses and buying new gen anchors. Then a company gave me a free Rocna, I tried it because as I writer I figured I should know. What is my impression now after 25 years of dropping every hook known to man??? You will have to pry it out of my cold dead hands. My fist night with my new Rocna was in a full gale upwind form a rock jetty, that night I coined the term Rocna'd to sleep. I only have about 120 days experience so I'm just learning this anchor but I will put in another 200 this year and see where she goes. As of now my only complaint is that they are ugly beasts. As for sizing...If you are over sizing a new gen anchor I'm sorry to say it but... waste of money...You know the old saying, if you don't know what type of knot to tie tie lots of them.
Anchoring upwind of a rock jetty in a gale for the first time with untested ground tackle sounds scary. As for wasting money, where better to waste money than on weight on the bottom?
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Old 25-04-2014, 17:59   #35
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Re: Rocna Versus the World

We didn't plan on anchoring that way, it just kinda crept up on us, sailing is funny that way, Damn weather guesser. If thats the case why not just get a 500lb anchor...ok exaggeration but once again people are killing their boats. Take the extra weight of the anchor plus roller furling plus one size fits all sail plus... results in destroying the comefort and performance of a boat. If your 35 CQR worked ok for 20 years and you upgrade to a much better anchor why add even more weight by oversizing? We use a secondary anchor if its really that bad. I'm just saying There are so many unbelievably inexperienced sailors writing blogs these days that the droves of readers follow them in their footsteps. Its the whole heard of sheep mentality. Bigger is not always better, you don't buy oversized condoms do you? No, you buy the size thats fits.
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Old 25-04-2014, 18:14   #36
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Re: Rocna Versus the World

If your Bruce is oversized I see no reason to ditch it. If I lose mine at some future date when the second hand market for the genuine article has dried up, I've got the 3D data to make an exact replica.
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Old 25-04-2014, 18:33   #37
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Re: Ronca versus the world

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Originally Posted by TDC View Post
I do believe a new gen/scoop is better than the CQR/Plow...

But it's not some super black magic. I have dragged the Rocna multiple times. First was in weeds. Grass got wrapped around the roll bar and was a pain in the rear to clear the fouling. Second time was in 'great holding' heavy mud. The mud filled up the scoop and then seemed to just drag along like a mushroom.

Overall I still recommend it. But am considering taking the Bruce out of the bilge to have a backup on the second roller. Bruce may not hold as well as a plow (or Rocna) but it has always set fast.
On my steel 40 footer, I have enough space and buoyancy to carry whatever I want (or whatever I care to deal with on deck, anyway). I have a 20 kg. CQR, a 15 lb. Fortress and a new 15 kg. Bruce, but will probably get a 30 kg. Spade or SARCA for my primary. But I will keep the reliable Fortress as a lunch hook, kedge and stern anchor, and one of the oldies for this very reason: your primary may work like a charm 95% of the time, but for the other 5%, something quite different may do the trick. It's why a lot of people still carry a yachtman's in three pieces; in certain types of weed or broken rock, it's often the ONLY anchor that will hold.

So while I accept that the science and holding is better today than with the older designs, I reject that there is "one anchor to rule them all and to the bottom bind them". Holding ground is too variable and insufficiently known for that to work.
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Old 25-04-2014, 19:08   #38
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Re: Rocna versus the world

[QUOTE=Stu Jackson;1526991]
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneuman View Post

You, too, perhaps didn't have the time to read my previous link, included below as well as two others.

INDEPENDENT testing, the stuff you're looking for.

And I agree, if not a Rocna, and if you don't like roll abrs, which BTW are great for keeping the anchor on the bow, then there are certainly other new gens.

CQRs have the least surface area of all anchors, and need to be upsized to hold any given boat size.

Same for Bruces.

Good luck.

Anchoring 101 Anchors & TEST Results of New Generation Anchors EXCELLENT & Important

Anchor Selection 101 includes good discussions of various system selections and pictures of new generation anchors on bowsprits both short and extended Roll bar anchors on bow roller Rocna Flix

Why NEW GEN Anchors are Better:

Anchors & TEST Results of New Generation Anchors EXCELLENT & Important

Please, please remember, we're tlaking primary bow anchors here. Of course, Danforth types are good for some conditions (one way current rivers, for exmaple) or for stern anchors.
I looked at this earlier -- am I missing something? Looks like links to a Catalina forum. I don't see any independent data here.
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Old 25-04-2014, 19:58   #39
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pirate Re: Rocna Versus the World

Sorry mate.. for me Bruce rocks,,, CQR... okay here and there but I love my Bruce..
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Old 25-04-2014, 21:08   #40
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Re: Rocna Versus the World

You just had to say the A word. Now see what you've done.
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Old 25-04-2014, 23:48   #41
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Re: Rocna versus the world

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Buy a Spade or Ultra instead of the Rocna, then you won't need to make any modifications to accommodate the roll bar. Keep the other two anchors for spares.
+1

Modifying the bow roller can get very expensive.
The Steel Spade and the Rocna are both fantastic anchors. I think the Rocna just has the edge, but others would place the Spade ahead. They are very close and both will be a significant step up.
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Old 25-04-2014, 23:53   #42
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Re: Rocna Versus the World

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
I have a Manson Supreme and am happy with it.

But I'm really reading the thread waiting for Rex and his sidekick JJ to show up and rip you guys a new one.
Most, or all, of the new gen anchors, Fortress, Spade, Super SARCA, Rocna, Supreme, Excel, Ultra engender more support, now, from the buying public than do the older style, CQR, Delta, Bruce and clones. However the old style still have strong advocates, are used in some pretty impressive long range cruises and are used by people with sufficient reputation that their choice cannot be ignored.

Much of the support of specific new gen anchor is from people who have never tested some of the other new designs - if they have even ever seen them. Consequently support by an owner simply means its better, in their opinion, than their previous, usually old gen, anchor and not that its better than any of the other new gen anchors. People also like to defend their choice (blindly) - even if they have never seen or tried the alternative. The idea that there is something as good, maybe better, cannot be countenanced. Additionally because people usually change through 'bad experiences' (for whatever reason) and there is a strong argument that 'Bigger is Better' the new anchor they buy is invariably bigger (often much bigger) than their old one - and if the thesis that 'Bigger is Better' is correct then - obviously - the new gen anchor IS better, partially because it is also bigger. An further factor is that anchors supplied on commissioning are commonly undersized (however you define it) which contributes to their poor performance - so poor performance of the old gen might be attributable to the fact the anchor was simply too small - not that it was not a good, or adequate, anchor.

But if you are thinking about changing the implication must be - you do not have sufficient confidence in what you have, or you would not ask the question.

There are a couple of new gen anchors with insufficient credibility, yet, for example The Boss - so it does look as if we might see further development. The few reports on the Boss are favourable - but we do not seem to have a sufficient 'population' (and nor does it feature frequently in any reviews) so (I reserve comment).

One thing about new gen anchors is that they set more easily, they are more forgiving. Consequently people using new gen anchors, and singing their praises, might never have actually used them in particularly arduous conditions - so praise might need to be tempered slightly - just because an anchor sets, glass in hand, easily for canapes on a good sand bottom is not necessarily the anchor for Patagonia.

But given the choice of new gen anchors the idea of modifying a bow roller to accommodate a specific model seems - daft? especially when the modification seems to restrict use to only one anchor. (I'd give my eyeteeth, or wisdom teeth for room for a 2 anchor bow roller!). There are new gen anchors that will fit virtually any standard bow roller - why modify when there are other anchors at least as good? Why not spend that same money on buying 2 new gen anchors both of which might fit and might also offer a back up should, for example, you need to abandon one or should you find that 'Bigger IS Better' - but you did not go 'Bigger' enough and you would like to deploy a second anchor

Personally I would never go on a long term cruise without an alloy anchor - they are far too useful particularly if the steel anchor for your sized vessel is 25kg or larger (as 25kg or larger become difficult or downright dangerous to use as a kedge, to dinghy out etc). You can buy a new gen alloy from Fortress, Spade or Anchor Right, all demountable and offering a decent cross section of styles.

I also might keep the Bruce, if it is of the correct size - there are simply too many reputable voices continuing to sing its praise - but it is said you need to have big one, the smaller models are not quite so effective. Sadly the second hand value of CQRs is minimal - so you might need to keep it as well.

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Old 26-04-2014, 01:49   #43
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Re: Rocna Versus the World

I have a Sarca excel and love it, held my 8 tons of boat in 55knots with 1.5m swell. It sets easily and always comes up easily. I am so glad I moved on from the cqr which a always dragged around anchorages trying o get it to set.

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Old 26-04-2014, 08:09   #44
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Re: Rocna versus the world

[QUOTE=sneuman;1527063]
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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post

I looked at this earlier -- am I missing something? Looks like links to a Catalina forum. I don't see any independent data here.
Yes, it appears you are missing the reading part. Or the looking at the videos.

Yes, it's a Catalina forum, but what does that have to do with it?

The text and comparisons are by a very well respected mariner who lives in Maine and has posted here as well as on many other boating forums.

You asked for independent testing. He's independent.
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Old 26-04-2014, 13:42   #45
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Re: Rocna Versus the World

Sorry folks for opening a can of worms. Thank you everyone for your opinions. Only thing for certain is the Bruce and Fortress are not going anywhere. Jury is still out on what to mount to the other roller on the sprit.
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