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Old 30-05-2014, 04:19   #106
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

The wind was a bit stronger last night and came from several different directions.

The original wind when the anchor was set was a SW.

Last night it suddenly swung 90 degrees and increased to 30 knots. This direction was not expected, nor ideal, because it left some above water rocks just behind our stern. To complicate matters the anchorage is completely uncharted, so I only had a visual inspection made during the day to indicate the depths close to shore. I let out a little bit more snubber, but I felt the scope could not be increased much in this direction, so ended up about 4.5 :1.

After several hours the wind eased to 20-25 knots, but swung back to the SW.

This was the forecast. The gusts were well less than the 42 knots predicted, but the average wind was not far off the 30 knots expected. It varied in direction far more than the forecast indicated, probably from local thunderstorm activity.

These sort of events are very common in this area at this time of year. I have outlined the above so that you can judge the anchor performance and interpret the photos. These common everyday situations, just as much as the infrequent but more spectacular storms, indicate why cruisers place so much emphasis on their anchoring gear.
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Old 30-05-2014, 04:23   #107
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

This was the result this morning. If you look at the marks in the sand, you can see at some stage in the night the shank has rotated about 50 degrees, then it has come back to within about 10 degrees of its original position. It would have been great to see the anchor during the rotation. Alas, it was 10pm and even this Anchorholic does not go diving at night to look at the anchor .

The anchor has not moved other than rotating. The shank is more visible, but this is due to the scraping away of the sand as the shank rotates first one way and then the other.
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Old 30-05-2014, 06:35   #108
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
The steel Spade is an excellent anchor and I think you will find this is an isolated incident.

The most common cause is a bit of debris trapped under the anchor, or around the toe. With my previous Rocna it would set and hold full reverse (providing normal scope and a reasonable bottom) first time nearly all of the time. (Maybe 95%?). For the 5% where it didnt hold full reverse I usually dive and try and find the cause. The drag marks can usually be found. At the end of the drag look for some debris. I have seen old sails, towels and even once a tree!

Someone recently told us their anchor would not set and when they pulled it to the surface they found there was an old fashioned ring pull from a beer can over the tip. Even this was enough to inhibit the proper set.

In other cases you find the bottom is not what you thought it was. A thin layer of sand over rock is the most common problem. The sand looks like a great substrate from the surface, but the anchor cannot bury.

In some cases there is no explanation (although some of these will be debris that cannot be identified)

My final comment is that your boat with its variable pitch propellor can develop much more reverse thrust than most yachts. This is great for setting the anchor on most occasions, but at 3/4 revs you are generating more force that I can at full reverse.

Let us know if you find the cause.
Yep, the ring pull really did prevent our old cqr from digging in!

We didn't find any cause for the Spade not digging in at our last anchorage, when we dived to take pictures we couldn't find it, even the rope/float had dissappeared! The wind shifted significantly and blew 30 knots for a couple of hours and the Spade held us fine. So we have no idea why we managed to drag it when setting.

Today's anchorage is a little deep for photos unfortunately but we held fine with 3/4 power astern again.
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Old 30-05-2014, 06:58   #109
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

I don’t like seeming to be negative Noelex and mean no disrespect, the Mantus seems like a good anchor, but given the substrate that is a poorly set anchor after experiencing a thirty knot blow in such soft and good holding substrate, any anchor on those substrates, even poor designs for those that don’t know will set equally as well, again as in all of your shots so far even in thirty knots the anchor has failed to bury itself unlike most of the other designs without a roll bar.

For example look at NornaBirons last comment;

Yep, the ring pull really did prevent our old cqr from digging in!

We didn't find any cause for the Spade not digging in at our last anchorage, when we dived to take pictures we couldn't find it, even the rope/float had dissappeared! The wind shifted significantly and blew 30 knots for a couple of hours and the Spade held us fine. So we have no idea why we managed to drag it when setting.

Today's anchorage is a little deep for photos unfortunately but we held fine with 3/4 power astern again.

Rex wrote;
Same wind you experienced Noelex but a much prefered result than your last photo.


There spade sets deep, evey time it seems, at least the
float will have less chance of rapping around the chain as it can on the concave roll anchors.

You know your own terminology of the Mantus is that it can shuffle around; the evidence of your terminology is justified due to a very shallow sets.

You need conditions of sixty to 80 knots such as the anchors we put down for moorings, every twelve we dig them out for inspection, you need to anchor in many types of sea beds over many years before you can give any anchor its heads up, just take a look at the disappointment, negative comments now circulating on new generation anchors, look through all of the newly started threads, customers that have owned Rocnas and Manson Supremes are now telling different stories as to when they purchased them.

I am not saying they are not happy with them and that they are not good anchors but certainly have not turned out to be what some have expected.

What these photo’s have showed up is where is the takeover of the roll bar anchors? Some have turned out to be true believers in bigger is better as a result of purchasing a new gen anchor, yet they are supposed to be three times better in many cases.

Noelex, this is where anchorholics becomes a problem, you are an observer not a designer, one can be so intrigued from what they see, they don’t really understand the concept, never the less the visual is just amazing and encourages one to make assumptions, your cure, design an anchor of your own, take it to a University to test and help you with what you believe is happening, by the time you have spent many thousands of dollars and run out of energy, you will no longer be an anchor holic.

By then you will be well educated in anchor technology that will be an enormous help when observing an anchors performance and enhance advice, difference being you will no longer receive the pleasure of sipping on your boat and just believing.

A word of advice, stay away from trying to film anchors in storm conditions, if they do get dislodged for some reason they will find the man with the camera and we will never get to see the video or the photo’s, further in those sought of conditions you cannot see a thing underwater.

We also supply our anchors for moorings, they set so deep that they eventually find a depth that they simply don’t screw around and pull out at all, of course you only set anchors as moorings where the substrate is ideal, such as in many of your photo shots.

I am not knocking you Noelex as it is all very interesting and allows for me to give my knowledge and opinion as I see it from over twenty five years in anchor technology, we supply vessels over three hundred tons with our anchors and have done so for many years, for confirmation of our credentials check our news page. all good threads need the negatives thrown in for your readers to question, otherwise no one learns anything.

Remember this, NO ANCHOR IS A HUNDRED PERCENT, there are better ones and it is you the customer at the end of the day that needs to do his homework and choose the better one.

Regards Rex.
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Old 30-05-2014, 09:07   #110
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Rex, I think it is unfortunate when another manufacturer talks negatively about a competitor's product.

The substrates in Victoria (where you develop and test your anchors) are soft, or very soft.
You yourself described the substrate in Port Phillip Bay as:
Quote:
Originally Posted by congo View Post
this area is dredged for ships and the bay continuously tries to replace the dredging with fine silt, rich mud like goo approx. 2 Ft deep, then on top we have this very quick growing weed of which is known as floating substrate approx. 18 inches deep.
And this is an area in Victoria with a firm substrate compared to the rest of the State (areas such as Westenport Bay and the Gippsland and Welshpool regions are softer again than Port Phillip Bay). Even my plough would disapear out of sight during my time sailing there and I only had 10hp to set it with!

You really need to test your products in some much firmer substrates to develop an anchor that will work well in all bottom types. Your comments indicate to me that you have not done this.

I have seen many different anchors underwater in a variety of substrates and the performance of the Mantus has been excellent so far, a result that for some reason you are disputing. I have already published a few photos of other anchors' performances in my anchorages (including NornaBiron's Spade before we parted ways) and there will be many more.

There are not many Anchor Right anchors in the Med, but there are a few and I am sure I will be able to get some comparison photos, along with all the many other designs from different manufacturers. However, given your recent demands for removal of photographs of bent anchor tips, I am not hopeful you will allow members to see photos of your anchors underwater in these conditions and to judge for themselves.
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Old 30-05-2014, 11:34   #111
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by congo View Post
Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

I don’t like seeming to be negative Noelex and mean no disrespect, the Mantus seems like a good anchor, but given the substrate that is a poorly set anchor after experiencing a thirty knot blow in such soft and good holding substrate, any anchor on those substrates, even poor designs for those that don’t know will set equally as well, again as in all of your shots so far even in thirty knots the anchor has failed to bury itself unlike most of the other designs without a roll bar.

For example look at NornaBirons last comment;
Quote:
Originally Posted by congo View Post
Yep, the ring pull really did prevent our old cqr from digging in!...


, just take a look at the disappointment, negative comments now circulating on new generation anchors, look through all of the newly started threads, customers that have owned Rocnas and Manson Supremes are now telling different stories as to when they purchased them.

I am not saying they are not happy with them and that they are not good anchors but certainly have not turned out to be what some have expected.


What these photo’s have showed up is where is the takeover of the roll bar anchors? Some have turned out to be true believers in bigger is better as a result of purchasing a new gen anchor, yet they are supposed to be three times better in many cases....


I am not knocking you Noelex as it is all very interesting and allows for me to give my knowledge and opinion as I see it from over twenty five years in anchor technology, we supply vessels over three hundred tons with our anchors and have done so for many years, for confirmation of our credentials check our news page. all good threads need the negatives thrown in for your readers to question, otherwise no one learns anything.

Remember this, NO ANCHOR IS A HUNDRED PERCENT, there are better ones and it is you the customer at the end of the day that needs to do his homework and choose the better one.

Regards Rex.

Well, this appears to be a bit self serving, if not totally disingenuous. Seems the standard rebuttal is everyone's s*^t stinks, but mine.

As to setting on a short scope, when we changed from a CQR to a Rocna I was immediately struck by how quickly the Rocna would set in virtually any bottom type. Just out of curiosity I would shorten the initial scope to silly proportions - like 1.5 - 1, or 2 - 1. Even under such poor anchoring technique, the majority of the time the Rocna would arrest the boat quickly, and would withstand setting under power!

My sense is that the Mantus, Rocna, Spade, etc. all perform well and can be a proper choice as the main bower for any yachtsman. The minor differences observed in both "testing" and practical usage likely fall within standard deviation or variations in the sea floor. My choice of the Rocna was due to its better fitment on the bow roller. And despite being China manufactured (the horror!), I have yet to bend a shank, or hear of any bent shanks, following the bad batch of several years ago.

While this seems to be a debate of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, the pics of anchor sets are interesting.

Just my opinion
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Old 30-05-2014, 12:16   #112
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

The pics of anchor sets are interesting.
[/QUOTE]

We like this thread. If nothing else it has made us take much more notice of how our anchor performs and has changed our setting technique for the better. Last night we reanchored at midnight due to an unforecast wind shift which had us much nearer to the shore than we were comfortable with. With the information and skills that we have learnt over the last three weeks we were confident that our anchor was well set and holding without having to dive and check.

Any thread which encourages us to take more notice of what is happening on the seabed has got to be a good thing as far as we are concerned.
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Old 31-05-2014, 10:26   #113
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

The wind has now swung around 180 degrees, but it is light so the boat is still being held by the chain with the anchor almost at the stern of the boat.

The anchor is little changed, but this is a slightly better photo after the rotation. You can see some of the sand that was scraped away by the shank rotating back and forth has been replaced. So the anchor shank looks a little more buried.

My wife has taken a lot of the photos. Thanks sweetie . I snapped a shot of her diving down to the anchor. You can just see the anchor float at the bottom of photo.

(She's not naked. That would be against forum rules. She's got a weight belt on )
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Old 31-05-2014, 15:05   #114
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
The wind has now swung around 180 degrees, but it is light so the boat is still being held by the chain with the anchor almost at the stern of the boat.

The anchor is little changed, but this is a slightly better photo after the rotation. You can see some of the sand that was scraped away by the shank rotating back and forth has been replaced. So the anchor shank looks a little more buried.

My wife has taken a lot of the photos. Thanks sweetie . I snapped a shot of her diving down to the anchor. You can just see the anchor float at the bottom of photo.

(She's not naked. That would be against forum rules. She's got a weight belt on )
Well, more pics Sir!!!!

Actually that is impressive. By the time I get 6-8 feet down I am starting to run out of air, having had to kick so hard. I guess the weight belt makes the difference. Great shot

Are you anchored in 20-25 feet?
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Old 31-05-2014, 16:00   #115
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Be careful snorkeling using a weightbelt if you don't understand diving physics.

Essential one only needs a weightbelt freediving in salt water without a wetsuit if you are quite buoyant.

As you leave the surface and swim down your lungs are compressed by the water pressure reducing your buoyancy. Water pressure at 10m is double the surface and your lung volume will have halved such that if you were neutrally buoyant at the surface a snorkeler with a 6 litre lung capacity their lungs will have lost 3 litres of volume and therefor buoyancy. I litre of salt water weight approx 1 kilogram.

To swim back to the surface they will have to overcome 3kg of negative buoyancy. A freediver regularly diving to 10m would most likely weight themselves such that they would be at neutral bouyancy at round 5-6meters depth. To overcome their positive buoyancy on the surface a good surface duckdive and a couple of kicks you will be at 6 meters and you can stop kicking as negative bouyancy will drop you down to 10m quickly and continue ever downward if the water is deeper.

That is where the larger style freediving fins come in handy to overcome the negative buoyancy of your compressed lungs and reduction in buoyancy of a wetsuit (same principle) if you are wearing one.

Just be careful wearing a weightbelt and understand the physics involved.

Google freediving buoyancy.

Meanwhile keep the photos coming.

Cheers
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Old 31-05-2014, 17:33   #116
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

A bit of thread drift here, I have to say that the photos show a barren seascape. I haven't had too much experience in the Med, only sailed there a few times, is it all a featureless desert under the water, or am I just used to seagrass beds and coral and stuff?
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Old 31-05-2014, 21:41   #117
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Great freediving shot! Wow. I can never get my ears to clear quickly enough going down freediving. I'm fine with scuba, but can't figure it out freediving for some reason.

Max props to your wife, as the kids say (used to say?).
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Old 01-06-2014, 01:27   #118
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Thanks for all the comments

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Are you anchored in 20-25 feet?
Close. The anchor is in 8.2m (27ft) The float can just be seen in the bottom right of the photo.
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Old 01-06-2014, 01:30   #119
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

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Just be careful wearing a weightbelt and understand the physics involved.:
Yes, thanks for your concern. She does understand the physics involved . The Med is very salty though and she is a more buoyant than in Australia. In addition, as she dislikes being encumbered she does not wear fins. Also holding the camera removes the proper use of hands, so without weights she finds it difficult swimming down. It is, however, only a very small amount of weight and she assures me that she is still positively buoyant at about six metres.

I always wear fins, so it is less of an issue, but I have also found that holding a camera limits the use of hands for attitude adjustment and a small amount of weight helps.

On the issue of safety, here in the Med there are very few currents. When we dive in Australia in spots such as the outer reef it's easy to encounter currents that cannot be swum against and we both always wear fins then. If you miscalculate and end up down current of the boat it becomes very dangerous.
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Old 01-06-2014, 03:58   #120
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

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A bit of thread drift here, I have to say that the photos show a barren seascape. I haven't had too much experience in the Med, only sailed there a few times, is it all a featureless desert under the water, or am I just used to seagrass beds and coral and stuff?
Yes, there is not much marine life to observe. So I might as well look at anchors (that is what I tell my therapist).

The photos I have shown up to now have mostly clear sand, but there is quite a bit of (mostly) thin weed in my current anchorages. This can be seen from the surface so it's easy to avoid these areas when dropping. When anchoring at night or in strong winds though, the bottom details cannot be easily seen so there should be some photos of anchors in weed coming up.

There is not a lot of thick weed where I am at the moment, but there is in surrounding areas. If I get back to Croatia, for example, there will be plenty of photos of anchors in thick weed. It will be a challenge to photograph. Often in thick weed the anchor completely disappears, but if you dive down and part the weed it is not unusual to find the anchor has not penetrated the underlying substrate at all.

There are a few soft sand and mud bottoms. I will be able to get some photos of anchors in these sort of substrates, but the water visibility is less and the diving is less appealing. In addition, in these soft substrates virtually all anchors set well. If the anchor disappears I can estimate the depth of set of my anchor from my float, but this is very hard to do with other anchors. It is also very hard to see drag/rotation marks, as the soft material rapidly fills in the marks.
In soft substrates my anchor assessment switches more to watching which boats drag and if the anchor holds when applying reverse during setting.
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