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Old 25-05-2014, 08:33   #76
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Still at the same anchorage. It is too nice to leave .
The wind was only very light from a slightly different direction overnight so the Mantus is unchanged, but the chain is at a slight angle.

Two other boats joined the anchorage (and the boat with the delta has left).

The first had what looked like a Bugel copy, but on closer inspection it may have been a genuine Bugel that had been painted (it had a powerball swivel which was supplied with the original and the shank underside was chamfered). Sometimes painting is done to aid visibility underwater, but I suspect is was done in this case to to fool would be thieves that it was a cheap copy (like putting fake patches on your new dinghy). Difficult to be sure without inspecting the anchor closer.

Anyway, the Bugel is a very simple anchor with just three parts all cut from flat sheet so if the geometry and balance are good the copies can work well (check closely though as some of the copies are terrible).

This anchor was dropped well in the same anchorage, but in a slightly different area that has some light weed. Nevertheless they managed to hit a patch of sand (but maybe not the same consistency as for the Mantus and Delta anchors).

Even if you can see the bottom clearly it is surprisingly hard to drop the anchor in the intended spot in deeper water, so it is a skill worth practising. It requires good coordination and communication between the helm and bow.

The Bugel set quickly and well, unlike the Delta in the same anchorage (see previous photo). The fluke properly penetrated the sand, rather than just piling it up in a heap, it has rotated to nice and level, but some of the outline of the fluke can just be seen which suggests it is not a long way below the surface.

The Bugel does have a smaller fluke area than the more modern roll bar derivatives so it needs to set a bit deeper for the same holding power, but this is a good result. An anchor that is set like this will invariably dig a bit deeper if more holding is required and it will generally swing around in a stable fashion to a new wind direction.
Excellent photo, Noelex!
Who is the author???

I would be extremely cautious about Bugel copies, as this design is very sensitive to any changes in geometry and - particulary - in weight distribution.
As far as I know they are still the Swiss made anchors in production, built to original design and specification, with addition of stainless steel derivative. I understand it is from where Amel is sourcing their bowers now.

Your note about the fluke area and the need of deeper dive under pressure is very good one. As there are a lot of places with difficult to penetrate layer underlying the quite thin layer of sand some more caution should be executed with this design. On the other hand I'm still yet to hear about well set Bugel (original one) breaking out at the windshift - I suppose flat fluke helps it to rotate without any tendency for going up or to be turned on the side.

Cheers,

Tomasz
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Old 25-05-2014, 08:36   #77
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
It is Agothonision island.
I am not sure the bay has a name, but is sometimes referred to as West bay. It is on the south eastern side of the island.
And my bet is, You are sitting in the cove on the west side of the bay
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Old 25-05-2014, 08:42   #78
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

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Originally Posted by pbiJim View Post
Apparently, I didn't get the memo on this. Would you mind filling me in on what Rocna did to loose your confidence?

Thanks,
Jim
And more importantly, how can they tighten it back up again?
;^)

Sent from my SM-G730W8 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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Old 25-05-2014, 08:47   #79
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbiJim View Post
Apparently, I didn't get the memo
on this. Would you mind filling me in on what Rocna did to loose your confidence?

Thanks,
Jim
No need to be concerned Jim.

Mantus have sent me anchor at no charge to test.

I was perfectly happy with my Rocna, but I have a deep interest in anchoring and great to have the opportunity to try out a new model.

Greg from Mantus has been great to deal with and very casual. He has just said I will send you an anchor, give me your address.
I think it shows remarkable faith in the performance of anchor that he is prepared to send one to an acknowledged Rocna fan for an evaluation.

Testing an anchor like this will take some time, given the high cost of postage halfway around the world and the limited value to the manufacturer of a second hand anchor this means I have received an anchor at no charge.

I promise it receive an honest evaluation.
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Old 25-05-2014, 08:57   #80
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

The second anchor I present just as a curiosity. There is not a lot of relevance to our style of anchoring.

It was on a typical small Greek fishing boat. These often use homemade grapnel anchors (made out of rebar) with small triangular flukes welded on the end, or sometimes, as in this case, welded on only two out of the four prongs. Perhaps with the thought that the more streamlined prong grips in rock, and the larger triangular fluke is better in sand? They seem to preferentially anchor in light weed, or even rock, rather than pure sand. I suspect this is because with the small fluke area and lack of any deep penetration means the anchors rely on the fluke and chain tangling with the weed roots, or rocks for holding power. This is not a recipe I suggest we copy.

They are poor anchors, but the fishermen know the local weather and go back to port in anything other than light wind. They are also often on deck sorting out nets etc rather than asleep, so their requirements are not as strict as ours.

Anyway, you can see the anchor is not really holding at all. Most of the grip is from the chain wrapped around the weed. They nevertheless held like this overnight in 10 -15 knots despite a 50:50 rope and chain rode. They were anchored about as close as I am comfortable with given that our boats will have such disparate swinging patterns. At least they were not upwind .
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Old 25-05-2014, 09:13   #81
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

The photo is taken from our galley window. In these sort of situations I set our anchor alarm set so that it triggered with a minor change in wind direction, rather than just going off with dragging. It is good insurance.
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Old 25-05-2014, 09:26   #82
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
The photo is taken from our galley window. In these sort of situations I set our anchor alarm set so that it triggered with a minor change in wind direction, rather than just going off with dragging. It is good insurance.

Pretty close...

And who cares about fenders???

They are at home, and count You as a kind of intruder
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Old 25-05-2014, 09:31   #83
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Note the previous photos were yesterday I could not get an internet connection even climbing the hill to put them in.
This was today's companion. A Kobra.

I charter boat has arrived in the same anchorage. It was equipped with a small Kobra.
It was dropped reasonably well although not set very hard. I braved my first swim for the season


This is the result:
Mantus in the first photo, unchanged. (this photo is from today and a taken from closer to the bottom) and the Kobra is in the next two photos.


The Kobra has set in a reasonable distance, and moderately well. although not as quickly as the Mantus has. (The Rocna, Steel Spade and Manson Supreme also nearly always set in a remarkably short distance) . It still has a significant list. While there is some heaping up of the sand the fluke has at least properly penetrated the substrate.

It would be interesting to see what would happen with a bit more force on the Kobra, but unfortunately the boat only stayed for a short time.
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Old 25-05-2014, 19:30   #84
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Noelex

Terrific thread! The time you have put into this is a huge value to all of us. We have spent over 3000 nights at anchor on our old Bruce 20kg. I have got my money's worth out of it since I only paid $150 for it 30 years ago. A Manson Supreme is on the wish list and when we get to NZ in a few years will make it happen.

Thank you again

Chuck
Jacaranda
Panama
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Old 26-05-2014, 11:18   #85
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

I agree that this thread has been very informative. We spent years at anchor with our Delta (definitely sized up from what they suggest) on chain & bridle when winds predicted. We also back down so it digs in. And I dive on it (for fun too) when I can and do anchor checks at night as well. Gotta say after seeing these photos, I would upgrade to a different anchor. The photos really help you see the evidence.
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Old 26-05-2014, 12:04   #86
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Note the previous photos were yesterday I could not get an internet connection even climbing the hill to put them in.
This was today's companion. A Kobra.

I charter boat has arrived in the same anchorage. It was equipped with a small Kobra.
It was dropped reasonably well although not set very hard. I braved my first swim for the season


This is the result:
Mantus in the first photo, unchanged. (this photo is from today and a taken from closer to the bottom) and the Kobra is in the next two photos.


The Kobra has set in a reasonable distance, and moderately well. although not as quickly as the Mantus has. (The Rocna, Steel Spade and Manson Supreme also nearly always set in a remarkably short distance) . It still has a significant list. While there is some heaping up of the sand the fluke has at least properly penetrated the substrate.

It would be interesting to see what would happen with a bit more force on the Kobra, but unfortunately the boat only stayed for a short time.
Thank You for next photos.
I think, that Kobra - even being quite a budget department anchor - is to some extent improvement on original Delta shape, but I may be terribly wrong, because biased
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Old 26-05-2014, 17:20   #87
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

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Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky View Post
Thank You for next photos.
I think, that Kobra - even being quite a budget department anchor - is to some extent improvement on original Delta shape, but I may be terribly wrong, because biased
Now DW. Nobody is ever biased about their anchor choice.

In reality it is natural for every owner to be somewhat biased towards their own choices and experiences and not just with anchors. Boat choice certainly etc, etc.

cheers
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Old 27-05-2014, 02:50   #88
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Now DW. Nobody is ever biased about their anchor choice.

In reality it is natural for every owner to be somewhat biased towards their own choices and experiences and not just with anchors. Boat choice certainly etc, etc.

cheers

Hi downunder

I'm not biased towards Rocna (being now my bower), I can rather tell I'm biased towards new gen anchors

And surely I'm biased AGAINST Delta, as it failed me too many times in the past
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Old 27-05-2014, 06:18   #89
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Thanks for the nice comments everyone.

Mantus at 2:1.

The new generation anchors have improved enormously from the older anchors. They set reliably and quicker, in a large range of substrates. They reset to a new wind direction more securely and have much higher holding power.

The one area that has not improved with most models is the ability to set and hold at a very short scope. No anchor will have anything like its ultimate holding power on a short scope, but it would be nice to have the versatility to anchor in mild to moderate conditions at less than 3:1. Fortress produce a table which lists its anchors likely holding power at different scopes. 2:1 is 10% of the full holding power. As you would expect the holding jumps up quite dramatically at slightly higher scopes (3:1 is 40%).

A good performance at 2:1, or 2.5:1 therefore gives confidence that there is a decent reserve when the anchor is used at much more comfortable 3:1.

At a very short scope the Rocna is very good, but the best anchor that I have seen for very short scopes, up to now, is the Bruce, a very old design. Some otherwise excellent new anchors really struggle and will not set in harder substrates even 3:1.

I decided to see how the Mantus sets at 2:1.

I dropped it in 7m of water intending to video the result. Unfortunately, the underwater video never started, but the Mantus did a great job. The angle of the chain at 2:1 is quite frightening. There is no catenary once the revs build and the chain seemingly pulls the shank up at impossible angle.
Nevertheless, the anchor set with the fluke completely buried and held full reverse (first go) for 30 seconds (my standard set). Very few anchors could do this.

Here are some still photos after the set. You can see the shank is still stuck up well above the seabed even after the power has been removed and the chain has sunk back. (The actual chain angle while setting was much steeper than this) The fluke has still managed to bury. There is some piling up of the sand rather than the deep bury that the Mantus normally does, but compare this Mantus set at 2:1 with some of the photos I have posted of different anchor designs in this same anchorage. It compares favourably despite the very short scope. Most anchors at 2:1 only manage a very poor set and break out immediately the chain catenary is diminished with a bit more force.
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Old 27-05-2014, 06:20   #90
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Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

The second photo shows the distance taken to set. This was considerably longer than normal for this anchor, indicating the anchor was, understandably, having a tough time, but the distance is quite comparable to the normal length taken by many good anchors in the sort of substrate at a normal scope.

This was not a very scientific test, there was no control and only one trial, but it was a very impressive performance. The anchor holding full reverse and remaining buried with the chain pulled up at almost 30 degrees off the horizontal. This is quite amazing to watch.
I will do some more trials and report.

Note: At these very short scopes chain catenary and even the grip of chain on the bottom can play big role. With full reverse at 2:1 there is virtually no sag in the chain, but the small amount of catenary at the start of the setting does help the anchor get an initial bite. This was at 7m and I would expect the result to be slightly better at deeper depths and worse when shallow. My chain is on the light side for my boat (10mm G7) making the anchors job a little harder. The Mantus is oversized, which helps slightly with setting and considerably with holding power.

Setting at these very short scopes is one area where a kellet can be of benefit. Another good trick if the anchorage allows this is to set the anchor at longer scope (say 5:1) and then shorten the rode to 2:1. This will at least set an anchor that refuses to bite at 2:1. It also helps to only very slowly increase the force when setting. None of these methods were employed for this set.

Sorry about the video failure. Hopefully the still shots of the final result are some compensation. At the same time I did also take a underwater video, that worked, of the Mantus setting at a more conventional, but still challenging 3:1. I will post this when I can get a quick enough internet connection. Even with the chain angle at 3:1 I think this video might help convince people how catenary disappears as the force increases (in this case mainly from the engine) and how a good anchor can still dive down with the shank pulled up at a considerable angle.
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anchor, Brittany, Bruce, Bugel, cqr, Danforth, delta, fortress, Jambo, kobra, Manson Supreme, Mantus, photo, rocna, Spade, Ultra

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