Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 5 votes, 4.80 average. Display Modes
Old 23-05-2014, 07:51   #61
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,608
Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

This is the next morning.
I would estimate the wind was only 15 knots overnight. (Although the forecast was a bit stronger, so it may have been more while I was asleep.)

As expected, the Mantus (in the right photo) was unchanged.

The Delta has moved back about two feet. It has shed the stone from under its fluke. (It can be seen on the left side of the shank about half way along) The anchor is perhaps a tiny bit more buried, but there is still a lot of the fluke exposed. It should have buried more. The movement back in only light wind indicates it only has a tenuous grip on the bottom.

This is a disappointing result from the Delta, although it is possible that the stone that was under the shank influenced the result.

The skipper would have rated his anchor performance as perfect. The anchor would have appeared to have held on the first drop and it would not have been apparent that the boat moved back overnight. However, underwater observation puts the anchor performance under the microscope. I hope via these photos I can share my underwater experiences and illustrate good and bad results.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	653
Size:	367.0 KB
ID:	81778   Click image for larger version

Name:	9AB072C2-4CF5-4209-BDB0-3A24FBF6B6CD.jpg
Views:	599
Size:	75.2 KB
ID:	81780  

__________________

__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-05-2014, 08:18   #62
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Atlantic ICW 29N/81W
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 36CC, now sold
Posts: 817
Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

It sees to me that anchors are not the problem, the real problem is the seabeds in some places which seem to be unsuitable. Solution could be cruise the Med on a cruise ship or by land and cruise other areas with nicer bottoms when travelling on your own vessel
just joking!
__________________

__________________
Robin3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-05-2014, 08:24   #63
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,608
Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Here is another photo of the Delta from a different angle.

It also shows in more detail the floating rope that some have been concerned about.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	655
Size:	230.6 KB
ID:	81781  
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-05-2014, 08:26   #64
Registered User
 
Cotemar's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Boat: FP, Helia 44 Evo
Posts: 5,716
Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

noelex 77,
Great pictures. We will be at Block Island this weekend, so maybe I will dive and take a few anchor pictures also. The water is 55f = 12c right now so I will need my 5mm wetsuit on for this dive.
__________________
Cotemar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-05-2014, 08:43   #65
Senior Cruiser
 
DoubleWhisky's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Home at Warsaw, Poland, boat in Eastern Med
Boat: Ocean Star 56.1 LR
Posts: 1,841
Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I agree the Delta sizing tables recommend inappropriately small anchors.

The Delta in the photo was dropped by a private cruising boat and these usually ignore the Lewmar sizing table for something more sensible. It looked a reasonable size. I have included a photo of the boat concerned so you can get some idea for yourself of the relative size of the anchor next to the boat.
Thank You for a photo, Noelex

Really looks not very small
On the other hand the problem with Delta is its fluke area/weight ratio is quite much poorer than for Manson Supreme, Mantus, Rocna or even newer convex - as Excel.
So to have a fluke area of let's say 40 kG Rocna, one will need probably something like 50 kG Delta - not very convenient. My own feeling is, the properly sized Delta should have a look of oversized one
Of course, it is only my own feeling, but... I used Deltas for many, many years... And difference in setting and holding power (in Med light bottom substrate) between 36 kG Delta and 40 kG Rocna is huge, really...

Oh, and regarding the photo - the boat looks like not a very new construction and is cutter rigged... The freeboard can be not so high for a given length..?..

Best regards,

Tomasz
__________________
DoubleWhisky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-05-2014, 08:56   #66
Senior Cruiser
 
DoubleWhisky's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Home at Warsaw, Poland, boat in Eastern Med
Boat: Ocean Star 56.1 LR
Posts: 1,841
Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Here is another photo of the Delta from a different angle.

It also shows in more detail the floating rope that some have been concerned about.

I don't know where exactly You got the photos, so I'm not very sure about my comment...
There is some black material at the bottom of Delta's track. May be the anchor just slided across the path of volcanic residue, covered by quite thin layer of sand. I found that such a patches - if tight - are difficult to penetrate for anchor and can justify several feet of drag before proper set is reached.
Of course - it is a speculation on my side only
__________________
DoubleWhisky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-05-2014, 09:38   #67
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,608
Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

The black bits are bits of broken off weed and debris. They are scattered on the bottom generally, but where there is a depression (like the drag marks from and anchor) they tend to collect in the base of the groove.

It is still too cold for a wimp like me to dive. The photos were taken from the dingy or by my wife who not only looks much better in a bathing suit she is happy to swim in cold water.

Normally I like to poke around on the bottom and see what the consistency is like and I have not been able to do this, so there is some possibility that the substrate is poor.

However, I have many similar results from anchors before. It is by no means unusual. There is a marked difference in the frequency depending on the quality of the anchor.

In most cases despite the "bad" result the anchor holds the boat overnight, as it did in this case. It is only when strong winds blow up the anchors deficiencies become apparent to the owners. but often the anchors limitations can be seen on many occasions if dive and look.
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-05-2014, 09:59   #68
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,608
Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin3 View Post
Solution could be cruise the Med on a cruise ship or by land and cruise other areas with nicer bottoms when travelling on your own vessel
just joking!
I bet you change your mind when you see this photo of the anchorage concerned
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	87A05BF2-2951-4350-B50E-09AF0CF35888.jpg
Views:	624
Size:	151.7 KB
ID:	81783  
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-05-2014, 13:03   #69
Senior Cruiser
 
DoubleWhisky's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Home at Warsaw, Poland, boat in Eastern Med
Boat: Ocean Star 56.1 LR
Posts: 1,841
Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I bet you change your mind when you see this photo of the anchorage concerned

WOW!!!!!
Are You somewhere in the Lipsi/Arkhoi area???
__________________
DoubleWhisky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 20:45   #70
Registered User
 
Sailormantx's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Newfoundland
Boat: 42' Colvin Gazelle
Posts: 250
Images: 2
Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Manson Supreme, on 110' chain with snubber in 11' depth. It has not moved since I set it ,wind gusting in low 20's and 2-3' seas every afternoon.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	P5240142.JPG
Views:	659
Size:	101.7 KB
ID:	81845   Click image for larger version

Name:	P5240143.JPG
Views:	602
Size:	98.8 KB
ID:	81846  

__________________
Sailormantx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 22:46   #71
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Usually South Florida these days
Posts: 825
Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin3 View Post
I was tending towards a more modern type like a Rocna until they severely blotted their copybook and fell to the very bottom of my confidence list,
Apparently, I didn't get the memo on this. Would you mind filling me in on what Rocna did to loose your confidence?

Thanks,
Jim
__________________
pbiJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 23:10   #72
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mackay,QLD, Australia
Boat: planning a approx 45ft cat
Posts: 3,651
Images: 3
Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

PbiJim,

Several large threads on it and the anchor wars started because of it.

Nolex might be able to point you the them.

Essentially after years of one their advocates Craig Smith (son of designer and previously on their website) promoting the absolute necessity for shafts of high tensile steel, built in NZ to minimise bending, bent shaft Rocna's started showing up.

Low and behold they were being build in China with under spec steel.

Seems there has been some ownership changes and the steel has been upgraded although not to the original specs promoted under which they gained their reputation. Adequate is now the catchcry and why the original NZ Rocna's are still highly valued.

That's why Robin3 says they severely blotted their copybook and fell to the very bottom of his and many other's confidence list, Shame really.

Cheers
__________________
downunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 23:18   #73
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mackay,QLD, Australia
Boat: planning a approx 45ft cat
Posts: 3,651
Images: 3
Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

One such thread from 2011. Probably need to search Rocna fron 2009/2010.

Rocna Recall - China vs Canada Quality Comparison

Hope this doesn't distract from this excellent thread of anchor photos which should develop a story over time. Keep them coming.

Cheers.
__________________
downunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2014, 08:09   #74
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,608
Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Still at the same anchorage. It is too nice to leave .
The wind was only very light from a slightly different direction overnight so the Mantus is unchanged, but the chain is at a slight angle.

Two other boats joined the anchorage (and the boat with the delta has left).

The first had what looked like a Bugel copy, but on closer inspection it may have been a genuine Bugel that had been painted (it had a powerball swivel which was supplied with the original and the shank underside was chamfered). Sometimes painting is done to aid visibility underwater, but I suspect is was done in this case to to fool would be thieves that it was a cheap copy (like putting fake patches on your new dinghy). Difficult to be sure without inspecting the anchor closer.

Anyway, the Bugel is a very simple anchor with just three parts all cut from flat sheet so if the geometry and balance are good the copies can work well (check closely though as some of the copies are terrible).

This anchor was dropped well in the same anchorage, but in a slightly different area that has some light weed. Nevertheless they managed to hit a patch of sand (but maybe not the same consistency as for the Mantus and Delta anchors).

Even if you can see the bottom clearly it is surprisingly hard to drop the anchor in the intended spot in deeper water, so it is a skill worth practising. It requires good coordination and communication between the helm and bow.

The Bugel set quickly and well, unlike the Delta in the same anchorage (see previous photo). The fluke properly penetrated the sand, rather than just piling it up in a heap, it has rotated to nice and level, but some of the outline of the fluke can just be seen which suggests it is not a long way below the surface.

The Bugel does have a smaller fluke area than the more modern roll bar derivatives so it needs to set a bit deeper for the same holding power, but this is a good result. An anchor that is set like this will invariably dig a bit deeper if more holding is required and it will generally swing around in a stable fashion to a new wind direction.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	F28C3919-6FD2-4B3F-981B-1166666FD368.jpg
Views:	589
Size:	105.5 KB
ID:	81864  
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-05-2014, 08:15   #75
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,608
Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky View Post
WOW!!!!!
Are You somewhere in the Lipsi/Arkhoi area???
Your making me give all my best spots away

It is Agothonision island.
I am not sure the bay has a name, but is sometimes referred to as West bay. It is on the south eastern side of the island.

Everyone is welcome, as long as your anchor is not camera shy
__________________

__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anchor, Brittany, Bruce, Bugel, cqr, Danforth, delta, fortress, Jambo, kobra, Manson Supreme, Mantus, photo, rocna, Spade, Ultra

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:46.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.