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Old 27-07-2008, 09:16   #61
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Hud,

Absolutely, sure. While I don't know the fees these mooring operators are paying to the "state" for use of the bottom, I am sure these wouldn't be operating/renting these moorings were it NOT highly profitable. It is unregulated for sure and with demand as high as it is you can be sure they are milking the public and lining their pockets nicely.

Of course these operators are "property" owners with influence in the local governments. So go figure.
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Old 27-07-2008, 11:38   #62
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While I don't know the fees these mooring operators are paying to the "state" for use of the bottom, I am sure these wouldn't be operating/renting these moorings were it NOT highly profitable. It is unregulated for sure and with demand as high as it is you can be sure they are milking the public and lining their pockets nicely.
I actually am sure you don't know either. I'm not sure it has to be highly profitable to operate a mooring field and some are perhaps more profitable than not. Since you don't know the former I'm also even more sure you don't know the latter.

It's always a good idea to assert the public must be being cheated when the things you don't know seem to be the center of your argument.

If it really were profitable (highly is not required) to build more mooring fields I'm sure they would be under construction nearly everywhere being so easy as you say. I suppose people from LI don't understand how profitable it really is.

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Of course these operators are "property" owners with influence in the local governments.
How much of course is impossible to know for sure. They are probably pretty smart in addition to making all the money. They probably let the politicians use the moorings for free.

I'll bet they don't pay anything. I know we don't pay anything for the community dock we have in our subdivision. Moorings are not common here so we don't use them much. I think they just asked and paid a processing fee. I am the dock master now and I'm pretty sure we don't pay anything to the state or the politicians. It's just ours and we don't let other people use it. We are not allowed to operate a for fee marina.
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Old 27-07-2008, 12:08   #63
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Pblais,

You obviously are unfamiliar with the lay of the land on Long Island Sound Harbors both the CT and NY shores right through Rhode Island. There is hardly a harbor which has not been filled with moorings and most of them are filled and some harbors have wait lists for.

I do know one mooring company owner/operator personally for over 20 years. He also services the moorings in several harbors in the area and is a resident and runs a hardware/chandlery. I am certain he would not reveal the economics of his business which is quite understandable. Isn't it.

I can imagine how he got where he is because he has the crane boat and the skill and the time to take on doing moorings. He was the go to guy in town for this, so it is understandable that he would / could acquire the rights to many of the moorings in the harbor and fees for servicing most of them.

I am unaware of the fees paid to any local jurisdiction for setting a mooring or the requirements to set one. I would presume that some local jurisdiction has rules about them, and perhaps collect some sort of fees on a local resident first come first serve basis and they may have a mooring grid set up which determines the number in the harbor. Some one has to organize this or chaos would reign.

Since I don't know all the expense side except what I laid out above.. that is user fees paid to the towns, I can't be sure of how profitable they might be. But I keenly suspect they are and I will leave it at that.
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Old 27-07-2008, 12:17   #64
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Another interesting thread.

My observation is that some people may not be cruising but are looking for a free/cheap place to stop that has great infrastructure.

It seems that those who are truly cruising and on the move stay a couple for days for free on a anchorage or pay for the temporary use of a mooring.

It is interesting that some feel that there should be communities on shore with showers, laundries, auto parking, a chandlery, a grocery store and maybe a liquor store and that all this should have an unlimited free anchoring field.

Infrastructure attracts residents and residents attract infrastructure. If "outsiders" are welcomed they should have some obligation to "pay" for the infrastructure they wish to enjoy.

It's legitimate to get on a list and wait to become part of a thriving community and if I were in a community with an 80 year waiting list I reckon there would be a pretty good reason for that long list and I would be a happy person.

There are tons of empty coves, shorelines, bays and harbors in the world where there are no people or infrastructure - cut the lines and get going.

Also - Maybe I am wrong here but if those empty moorings have been paid for, for the season, then they are not empty. They are not in use but they are not emtpy.

Too much judging of other people and the way they operate their municipalities.
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Old 27-07-2008, 12:33   #65
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So wait a minute, you basically just said.." I don't know for sure, but I think so, so it must be true". You should build a business plan based on that research and present it to your local banker. He needs a laugh this week.
Bottom line on all of this is, there is money being made by the municipality and the operator of the field if they are not the same person. How much is the question, and if you wanted to know in your municipalities case, it should be a matter of public record of the committe that oversees it. So if you are the municipality, and the operator, your question becomes ..." Do I make X $ for sure, and have a waiting list to fill any holes? Or, do I set a price for someone that may or may not show up, if the weather is right and we are a popular destination this week, month, year?" Municipalities and operators have expenses that they must cover, and like most government entities, they will spend it. In that case, they want the certain funds, because the expenses are fixed by a budget that will get spent.

Oh, and yes, the Native Americans did have the right idea, and you can see what that got them. It took them a few hundred years to get most of it back. First they tried to eliminate the problem ( mostly white immigrants that screwed up by trying to take too much for themselves, like a cruiser that may stay too long) with bows and arrows, and then many years in courts of law trying to get what they were promised and entitled to in the first place. Now the Native Americans know how the system works, and could teach us a thing or two.

Our local tribe here in Michigan will be building a marina next year. It will be a source of income for the tribe, it will bring people to their casino, and they WILL charge for it.
Why do some people not understand basic economics? It is not that hard. You have supply, demand, expenses, maintenance, fees, and at the end the objective is profit. Unfortunately, the American way is beginning to look askance at the profit part. Something for little or nothing is preferred. Which in the end leads to NOTHING that works. I guess that is OK if all you are looking for is a free place to drop anchor.
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Old 27-07-2008, 12:48   #66
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For many people who are recreational boating and living in densely populated areas of the NE USA it is not possible to find empty anchorages even ones where there are no shore side amenities. You need to go up to Maine for that.

The fact is most of the boating in the NE area is weekend boating and short term cruiisng. Boaters need a place to park their boats and may not require any shore side amenities except perhaps a place to park their car. And many locales don't even allow overnght parking near the harbor.

Most of the shore side amenities when they DO exist are not there for the boatinng community but for the land based economy/community. Any additional business is something boaters bring not TAKE.

Bathrooms and waste disposal are two items which come up often and cost money and would cost the community money they wouldn't need to spend were it not for boaters. Some areas require special waster disposal bags which you pay for. Some towns provide public rest rooms, but most leave that to restaurants. Showers are another story and my suggestion is shower on board or go without a shower for a day or two. I find taking a dink, a dob kit and towel, change and so forth in the dink and so forth is way too inconvenient anyway, so I would never use such facilities.

It could be argued that all the boaters bring revenue and business to these shore side towns, much the way street fairs attract people who don't normally do commerce on that street.

I would point out that in less populated areas the situation is very different - Maine compared to Long Island Sound. Up in Maine you find free moorings in many places and the fees are less when you do pay for them although they cost the same or more. The locals are more welcoming to boat people and don't do the "you can't land your dinghy here" routine (if you want to go for a walk or walk the dogs for example).

Newport is a boat friendly town and you find the complete range of behaviors by the locals. But the town does have a huge dingy dock, where you can lock overnight (I suppose this is for the locals who have a moored boat) and several in town. They have several companies who provide pay moorings and one a floating water dock for fill ups, several gas docks, marinas, launch service and an ample anchorage more or less in the middle of the harbor and a fantastic harbor master who sorts everything out and assists boaters. It's a busy harbor with day charters of all sorts, yacht club races and so on and it's impossible to get your own mooring. They are all owned and the wait list must be 80 years.

But if you can anchor you can enjoy Newport for free which you can't do in Huntington or Greenport for example as there is no protected free anchorage.

This is an over population / consumption problem.
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Old 27-07-2008, 12:59   #67
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What it DOES do is out John Q Moorings out of his profitable business, employs a few workers and profit reasonable cost moorings to all who boat and a reliable well managed system which is safer in the end and less than 1/4 the cost.

I would rather have John Q Mooring be responsible for providing me with a safe mooring rather than put the government in charge.
Here in Port Jefferson Harbor (Long Island NY) I pay the town (government) a yearly fee of 100 dollars for a permit to moor. I than go to a company to buy a complete mooring ( 900 dollars). I now own the mooring. Next I pay a company to put the mooring in the water and to take it out and store it at the end of the season (about 400 dollars per year). The mooring has to be taken out from Dec. – May because it is the law. I then pay for a launch service (750 per year).That company I deal with is owned and operated by a locale guy. I see him in town and he occasionally drives the launch. I know him he knows me and my boat and he watches out after my boat and my mooring equipment because he has a vested interest.
I pay him 1200 dollars per year. He services about 180 customers. So this guy makes money but he is not making a killing.

Capitalism works.

Paul
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Old 27-07-2008, 13:36   #68
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Paul's figures are very accurate from what I have seen. Paul is lucky in a way. He has made it through his town's waiting list and is able to drop his $900 mooring in. This is how it works where I am as well. Only problem... so many people have dropped those $900 moorings in, taking up the anchorages, there is nowhere left for people who cruise or live aboard to anchor. The insult is that over half of these moorings go unused all season long and are being taken up for no reason.

I could get on the 80 year list where I am now, but I'd be dead before I could ever get a mooring in. I am trying not to suggest that this is a case of "my generation getting the shaft again" and I don't think it is because so many other people (much older people) also can't get a mooring.

It's sad to say, but DefJef is wrong, unfortunately. Even Maine doesn't work the way he described anymore. From Casco bay down, most spots are choked full of moorings and there are severe restrictions on where you can land your dinghy. Also, the parking restrictions are even more severe!

The "rah rah capitalism" posts get a little tiresome. Why is it always the guy who has never cruised and never lived aboard that pops in to a good discussion just to say "rah rah capitalism!" It makes sense that we see your harbor differently, because we look at it *from the water* rather than from land. You guys see it as a great spot on the shore full of boats and a great access to the ocean. I see it as a nice nook where there is a good community to join and a great access to land. Our perspectives are 180deg apart, looking at the harbor from a boat, vs looking at it from an office window.

I can understand your point of view. Can't you break out of your "capitalism training" for a moment to understand mine?

(not directed to any one person... just the theme of popping in with capitalism - definitely not directed at Paul! )
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Old 27-07-2008, 13:47   #69
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I'd love to find a place to drop in a mooring and pay to service it. I don't need a launch service so it would save me thousands over the years I have been paying full freight. Who is capitalism working for here? It's not working for Sully and I am getting a service but paying more than 2x what the real cost is. It works for the operators and perhaps the property owners who put one and and the various marine guys who serve the moored boats.

Speaking of taking out the moorings... What exactly is the wisdom here? They don't take the mooring out, but the painter and the float and tie a winter stake to the chain. This is not a $400 service even 2x a year. It might be a bit messing shackling on the rope to the chain but gimme a break... Storing a mooring ball?
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Old 27-07-2008, 13:53   #70
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I'd love to find a place to drop in a mooring and pay to service it.
This would be a dream for me as well... if only there wasn't that pesky 80yr waiting list for us people who can't bribe the town, or call in a favor to the mayor.

And yes... in this case, the current arrangement isn't working for me at all.
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Old 27-07-2008, 14:02   #71
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Speaking of taking out the moorings... What exactly is the wisdom here? They don't take the mooring out, but the painter and the float and tie a winter stake to the chain. This is not a $400 service even 2x a year. It might be a bit messing shackling on the rope to the chain but gimme a break... Storing a mooring ball?
The whole mooring comes out 450 pounds concrete.
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Old 27-07-2008, 14:08   #72
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Different locals different government rules. Sean there is no waiting here. Out of town pays about 250 per year for town mooring permit.
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Old 27-07-2008, 14:11   #73
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Don't get too happy about native American property concepts. While "land ownership" might have eluded them, they also didn't tolerate some other tribe cmaping in their usual spots. And, stealing ponies and other goods was good sport and part of the normal and usual intertribal warfare that tends to be glossed over and unwritten in modern times.
The grass is always greener over the septic tank, and all that good stuff.


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"We have eminent domain laws" Oooh, better you use the n-word and f-word together on prime time children's shows, than to mention eminent domain in most places. Couldn't pick a hotter button, and unless you are the politician getting PAID off to use it, no one is going to use it lightly. Take away the mooring fields from the old-timers, the voters, the property owners in towns that have had them for generations--and they might remember how to ride you out of town on a rail.

I'm not saying you're not on to a good management system, or that the present ones can't be improved, but once you get into town and village property rights and "us versus them" you're messing with hornets. Ain't gonna happen without a lot of injuries.
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Old 27-07-2008, 14:12   #74
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Different locals different government rules. Sean there is no waiting here. Out of town pays about 250 per year for town mooring permit.

Wait... WHAT????!?!?

I can live drop a mooring in LI for $250/yr plus the price of my mooring? Am I *required* to take it out of the water in the winter? Are there other restrictions that would prevent me from living/working there, new neighbor??

This adds a whole new dimension to the thread.


BTW: If I *left* the harbor for good, I would remove my mooring others may enjoy the spot.
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Old 27-07-2008, 14:31   #75
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BTW: If I *left* the harbor for good, I would remove my mooring others may enjoy the spot.
Why not sell it to the next guy? Capitalism at work!!!
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