Pedal Powered Windlass

[jongleur]

Delancey:

Now I'm intrigued!

Does anybody know the story of that boat?

[madman960]

Why couldn't you build the frame out of wood and fiberglass it, instead of using stainless steel?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by madman960

Why couldn't you build the frame out of wood and fiberglass it, instead of using stainless steel?

You could and stainless really isn't that expensive, heck even a carbon fiber bike is not all that expensive, compared to windlass etc.
But it is going to take up a lot of space, and there are actually a lot of ways to skin that cat, from a hydraulic pump and accumulator for mechanical energy, or even running an alternator to store electrical power, but here's the rub. You would be surprised at just how little power that average human can generate, it's what makes human powered flight so difficult.


Sent from my iPad Pro using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[StuM]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

Yes, more pedal powered equipment is needed.

Consider being able to route this energy from a bicycle (hopefully with many speeds) mounted in a way that allows various shafts and belts to achieve without electricity:

1) pulling anchor
2) winch (for halyards sheets, reef lines, etc)
3) propeller for propulsion
4) circular saw for cutting, and drill press for drilling, and lathe for turning
5) bilge pump
6) electricity generation
7) bicycle for land travel

Many more options also are possible for this.

We've had discussions about pedal power in the past - like using an exercise machine to top up your batteries. The problem is the amount of power a human can produce for any length of time.

A professional cyclist can average about 300W over a TDF stage . That means he is generating about 25 Ah per hour. Your average sailor would be lucky to generate 10Ah in an hour pedalling and would be stuffed at the end of it.

So take your 1200W anchor windlass as an example. It would take you at least 6 times as long to get the anchor up if you are generating a plausible 200W.

As for propulsion. That 200W is the equivalent of is about 0.5HP - you aren't going to get far on that.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by Delancey

It frankly has always baffled me that any boat that has a coffee grinder has a coffee grinder.

I mean, I suppose they take up a smaller footprint than some kind of recumbent pedal power arrangement, but really? Using arms to generate power? People stand on their legs all day, try standing on your hands for more than five minutes. Good luck!

Recently ran across this image. Look in the center of the cockpit! Not sure who makes the boat or what the pedals are for. Any thoughts?

I instantly thought R2AK, Race to Alaska. No engine allowed was the major requirement. Took a bit to find, but this boat was a custom design for the race.
https://www.facebook.com/R2AK.TurnPointDesign/

R2AK link:
https://r2ak.com/registered-participants/#toggle-id-26

[Sailormantx]

Sailing Across the Atlantic by Pedal Power | YachtPals.com

This is the only one I have ever seen. Being a bit of a bicycle enthusiast, I have often pondered the use of pedal power on my boat, but the reality is that my little schooner just doesn't have the deck space and I am not willing to expose my bike to salty spray while underway... although I may yet put an alternator on a trainer just for fun.

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Not really comparable. When you stand, your muscles are primarily balancing with the bones doing most of the work. Your arms aren't designed to stand on, so the muscles must do a lot of lifting in addition to balancing. To get a more similar result, crouch down so your knees are bent 45 degrees from straight and see how your legs feel after 5 min.

I see two reasons you don't see more pedal powered devices.
- Your typical 45' and under cruising boat has very limited space and the footprint for a bike frame would eat up a lot of space.
- You would need to deal with corrosion. A stainless steel bike frame would get pretty pricey.

Now on high end racing yachts where price is no object and cruising needs are irrelevant...I would think a pedal powered winch could be an advantage.

I agree, there is no comparing the strength of your arms with the strength of your legs. The weight of average arms if 5.35% of your total. The weight of your legs is 17.56% of your total. Legs win!

Do typical 45' and under cruising boats have coffee grinders? No! I was never talking about typical 45' and under cruising boats, only boats with coffee grinders which are typically big racing boats with plenty of space for a recumbent bicycle, if not on deck then down below.

You would have to deal with corrosion? Stainless steel bicycle frames expensive? Have you never seen a boat with an aluminum of carbon fiber mast? Have you ever bought anything for your boat that was inexpensive?


From YachtPals-

"What do you do if you want to take the record-holding fastest boat around the world - which usually has 10 crew - and race it across an entire Ocean by yourself? You adapt, that's what you do. In this case it's YachtPal Franck Cammas sailing the magnificent Groupama 3, the race is the Route de Rhum, and the adaptation is to run the massive winches by bicycle power. Route de Rhum meets Tour de France? Well, perhaps something like that.

We've seen pedal-powered boats, of course, and we've seen a couple of different pedal-powered electrical rigs which charge the house batteries while keeping the crew's legs and hearts in shape. This, however, is a different situation. This is direct, human-powered machinery, giving Cammas the ability to do the work of many in cranking the massive Groupama 3 winches, while staying within the rules. It's no novelty, either: By letting him use his leg muscles for some of the big work, this Gilligan's Island contraption is helping keep Franck well in the lead"

[StuM]

Trimaran.
I'd hate to try pedaling that on a monohull when close hauled in rough seas.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by StuM

So take your 1200W anchor windlass as an example. It would take you at least 6 times as long to get the anchor up if you are generating a plausible 200W.

There are a few factors to consider.

• Most anchor windless are not very efficient unless it use using brushless motors and planetary gears. They don't need to be, because they are only in use for a short period of time. A 1200W anchor windless is probably equivalent to a very efficient pedal system where the human is working very hard.
• I can drop and pull anchor faster than any cruising boat I've ever seen and I don't have a windlass, I pull on the chain with my hands. Pedal power would in theory only help me. The reason I am faster is I can pull at various speeds depending on strain unlike an electric windless (unless it had different speeds)
• It takes very little power to pull an anchor if you use the main sail, and also swells can help a lot, and obviously you can do this with an electric windlass, but many people don't.

With that said, of course there is limitation to what a single human power can do, but for boats under 20 tons I think it could work very well and eliminate the need for an electric windlass.

As for propulsion. That 200W is the equivalent of is about 0.5HP - you aren't going to get far on that.

If you are converting to electrical energy first and then back to mechanical energy you will lose a lot of efficiency.

Despite this, I had an electric drive that pushed my boat 1.8 knots using only 150 watts, so even converting to electrical and back it would work and be useful from a pedal generator.

I can go 1.5 knots using my sculling oar, but only for 20 minutes or so because my arms get tired. I'm sure I could go a bit longer if I really had to. I can maintain 1 knots (about like rowing a dingy) or probably half the effort of going 1.5 knots for 1-2 hours. This is definitely under 100 watts assuming perfect energy conversion, so would be like riding a bicycle at 15 kilometers per hour on flat ground I imagine.

Originally Posted by Sailormantx

Sailing Across the Atlantic by Pedal Power | YachtPals.com

This is the only one I have ever seen. Being a bit of a bicycle enthusiast, I have often pondered the use of pedal power on my boat, but the reality is that my little schooner just doesn't have the deck space and I am not willing to expose my bike to salty spray while underway... although I may yet put an alternator on a trainer just for fun.

Well you just need the pedals... maybe instead of a chain drive, use a toothed belt to avoid corrosion and lubrication issues?

[John_Trusty]

I always wondered why racing boats did not use bicycle power rather than coffee grinders. I always assumed it was a silly racing rule (like IOR) that the rest of us lived with. As far as I can find, there is no prohibition on which muscles you use to trim sheets, only that you cannot use power. I'm surprised with AC boats challenging everything traditional that foot powered was not considered. Rules experts?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by John_Trusty

I always wondered why racing boats did not use bicycle power rather than coffee grinders. I always assumed it was a silly racing rule (like IOR) that the rest of us lived with. As far as I can find, there is no prohibition on which muscles you use to trim sheets, only that you cannot use power. I'm surprised with AC boats challenging everything traditional that foot powered was not considered. Rules experts?

Foot powered? not many muscles in your foot

I frequently use my leg muscles for trimming - every time I bend my knees, brace my feet and heave on a line

No rules against it, The problem that I see with pedal power is how long it would and how difficult it would be to get in and out of position on a set of foot pedals a moving boat.