Parachute Anchor idea for rode length

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Wavelengths in the open ocean can be incredibly long, especially in large, well developed storms. As in several hundred meters long. And in order for the chute (or drogue) to work well, it may need to be a full wavelength or more away. Even a couple of wavelengths (ideally, in theory) at times. So a long rode is desireable for this reason. There's more on this topic in many of the drogue threads (JSDs), including the one below, from my post till the thread's end. Including some comments & testing by Evans Starzinger, along with Beth Leonard & the Dashew's. Also, if you're buying or making a drogue or chute system, do some reading of the Drogue Device Database (DDB). There's volumes of useful info on real world deployments of various chute & drogue types in there. By a multiplicity of boat types. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2483372

The other factor is akin to scope at anchor. If the bow is up and the anchor is in the face of a wave, there can be a considerable upwards pull, attempting to pull the sea anchor out of the wave face. On the other hand, if the rope is long enough, it will tend to be pulled through a number of waves and stay down, not lifting the sea anchor.

This sounds like a lot of scope, but remember that unlike ground anchors, drogues and sea anchors have very little ability to resist upwards pull. They are not digging in, they are symmetrical.

(I've done a lot of pull testing of drogues, and when the waves get steep, unless there is a massive amount of rode out, they pop out of the steep wave faces, just like an anchor at short scope. This is the strength of the JSD--many elements.)

[maxingout]

When we know that bad weather is coming and we are offshore, we get out our drogues and parachutes and have them at ready. I set up my bridle on the bows and I run the lines tying them off at convenient and easy to remove locations. It does not take much time to put out the parachute when everything is set up ahead of time. No pulling things out of lockers in appalling conditions.

My favorite drogue set up is the "Abbott Drogue" which works well for us running off in winds to fifty knots. We have a dry cockpit and setting up the drogue is easy. It gives our catamaran excellent directional stability and keeps the autopilot happy as well. It reduces our speed to four knots which is very comfortable in our cat. We were really uncomfortable surfing down the waves at high speeds, and the autopilot was not happy until we put out the drogue.

The "Abbott Drogue" is simple to construct from things that I have on board and it is cheap. I take large silicone hose and slide it down a 180 foot loop of one inch three strand nylon. The four foot long silicone hose functions as a messenger to carry a heavy weight down the nylon line to the back of the loop in a chafe free manner. On the silicone hose, I attach chain/dingy anchor/ or anything heavy that can be securely shackled/fixed to the messenger hose. Then I drop the silicone messenger in the water off the stern, and it zips down the line to the middle of the nylon loop and remains about 90 feet behind our catamaran. I can winch the one inch nylon in and out to adjust the distance behind the boat. If I need to I can add a second "Abbott Drogue" on another loop of line behind the boat if I want more power from the drogue or have it pull from a different location/distance behind the boat. I can put more stuff on the messenger/carrier hose if I want to increase the drag as well.

You can learn more about it at: MAXING OUT - JOIN TEAM MAXING OUT AS THEY SAIL AROUND THE WORLD ON THEIR PRIVILEGE 39 CATAMARAN - EXIT ONLY

This is a variation on dragging warps behind the boat, but the weights on the silicone hose messenger are what really gives the "Abbott Drogue" its bite. Here is a picture trailing the drogue in fifty knots of wind in the Atlantic Ocean.

[BigBeakie]

Thanks Dave, that is an elegant solution for non survival level conditions. I like it alot.

In the photo, are you streaming 2 warps, and why? And what have you found to be the best way to attach the chain/anchor to the messenger tube?

Do you have the warp going through a rope clutch aft of the winch so you can take the warp off the winch to feed another messenger tube down the warp? Or can you feed the messenger tube down to the winch and get the line off quickly ( in a lull between waves?) and then push the messenger tube past the winch?

[BigBeakie]

Dave, Please disregard the question about the rope clutch aft of the winch, obviously (now) the messenger hose would not pass the clutch.

[Emouchet]

Windage on a cat is higher than on a monohull.
So you must plan for than.
Also, heaving to on a cat is not that a great idea, since there is no much keel to generate draft water.

[maxingout]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Thanks Dave, that is an elegant solution for non survival level conditions. I like it alot.

In the photo, are you streaming 2 warps, and why? And what have you found to be the best way to attach the chain/anchor to the messenger tube?

Do you have the warp going through a rope clutch aft of the winch so you can take the warp off the winch to feed another messenger tube down the warp? Or can you feed the messenger tube down to the winch and get the line off quickly ( in a lull between waves?) and then push the messenger tube past the winch?

I only use this method when I have winds to fifty knots without significant breaking seas. Because I have a privilege catamaran with an enclosed cockpit with maximum buoyancy in the stern, we never get boarding seas in winds below fifty knots. Other monohulls with whom we were sailing were taking water in the cockpit and in one case it went through the companionway and down below. Having lots of reserve buoyancy in the stern and an enclosed cockpit aft makes a big difference in following seas.

If I ever got seriously breaking seas from behind, then it would be parachute sea anchor time.

The hose that I use for the messenger is large hose that normally I use for chafing gear when at anchor. Attaching the chain/dingy anchor/ and other heavy stuff to the hose messenger is easy. I D-shackle the chain and anchor to itself, and then I use chord to tie it to the hose messenger. I drill several holes in the hose messenger through which i can place tough chord, and I use multiple lines/chords to hold the chain/anchor in place on the messenger. There is very little stress on the chords holding the chain in place since the chord is not taking the load applied to the drogue. It is only keeping the chain attached to the messenger hose. The messenger hose centers itself in a chafe free manner in the center of the drogue loop.

You can put as much chain/weight on the messenger hose that you want. If it is light, the chain will be nearer the surface. If it heavy, it will sink further down with little chance of being pulled out of the wave during a wave strike.

In that Atlantic storm, we surfed one wave at eighteen knots, and were on the edge of loosing it in the chaotic seas. I wanted to drop the speed down to four knots and have more directional stability so the autopilot could easily cope and I would not have to steer for several days during the bad weather.

The Drogue effectively increases the length of our boat from 39 feet to over a hundred feet in terms of directional stability. Having a drogue 90 feet behind the boat makes a huge difference in the directional stability of the yacht.

I put the first "Abbott Drogue" out there on a 180 foot loop, and I decided that I wanted to slow down more. I could have winched the drogue back in and added more chain if I had wanted, or I could simply put a second "Abbott Drogue" in the water and achieve the same effect.

One of the good things about this drogue is that when you winch it in, the messenger hose keeps the drogue centered in the loop while you are winching it in no matter how far or how close it is behind the boat, so you never completely lose the effect of the drogue until you pull it out of the water.

Having two "Abbott Drogues" out there means I had incrementally more drag and further slowing of the yacht. In addition, having two drogues out meant that I could have continuous pull from two different distances behind the yacht in the event that the wave pattern changed and one of the drogues started pulling out of the face of a wave and lost its effectiveness.

I probably could have gotten by with a single drogue with more weight on the single drogue, or I could have sent a second hose messenger down the single line. It's so easy to create and use that I just put a second warp out rather than adding more weight to the first.

One of the monohulls sailing with us in the storm had lots of water in their cockpit and water get down below. They did a lot of surfing, and I suspect they had rudder damage during the storm because during the transatlantic passage they lost their rudder and they abandoned the boat. The rudderless yacht washed up on the rocks in Barbados several weeks later.

I also carried a 100+ cone Jordan drogue on Exit Only, and I have never used it.

My storm strategy is first to go to the "Abbott Drogue" in winds to fifty knots. If the winds go over fifty with significant breaking seas, then I put out the parachute. If for some reason the parachute fails, then it will be Jordan drogue time as a last resort.

I like the "Abbott Drogue" because it is easy and cheap, and I can create it with the materials that I have on board. No additional expense. It works well on Exit Only, and gives me more options when conditions deteriorate. Breaking out the "Abbott Drogue" is not a major event like putting out the parachute.

Cleaning up after a storm is much easier with an "Abbot Drogue" as well since there is no clean up at all.

Cleaning up after a parachute deployment takes days to get all of the salt water crystals out of the parachute and 500 feet of nylon line. If you don't get the salt crystals out of the nylon line for the parachute, the crystals will abrade the line and weaken it over time. You have to soak the line and parachute in fresh water and then hoist it up the mast at a marina to drain and dry the line and parachute. I use my tongue to taste the line and parachute, and when it was no longer salty tasting, then I knew the salt crystals were gone and I could put the line and parachute away.

[BigBeakie]

Dave,

Got it👍👍

Thanks again for all that.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

........
Paul L - Thanks, but I think both heaving to and fore reaching can have their issues. I'm not sure how this cat will heave to, or if it will at all. I have had a bad experience trying to heave to in a cat. It got pushed sideways in confused seas and was hit broadside by a breaking wave. It was a cedar strip epoxy glassed boat 20 mm thick cedar strips with 1200gsm quad glass both sides and it still delaminated the West System epoxy and popped the furniture off the walls. Not good.
And fore reaching is not a passive storm mitigation technique either. We had to hand steer for 2 full days and nights on a trip back from Lord Howe Is. in very nasty big (10-12 meter) breaking seas, trying to steer between the breakers as they barreled down on us. Not relaxing at all, bloody exhausting. If one of us in incapacitated for any reason, both these options seem wrong.
......

It seems like you changed the criteria. You stated as a reason to set a chute was

Another cruiser told us of a night with wind against current where they were bashing to windward and were exhausted, so put out the chute on shortish rode just to hold position. In the morning after a good sleep, they were several miles upwind as the current had kindly towed them towards their destination.

This is not storm survival conditions. I think that is not a valid reason in most cases to set a para-anchor, and that het cases to set a para-anchor, and that heaving-to or fore-reaching is far more practical. Not wanting to continue to bash to windward is a great time to heave-to (for-reach).

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by maxingout

When we know that bad weather is coming and we are offshore, we get out our drogues and parachutes and have them at ready. I set up my bridle on the bows and I run the lines tying them off at convenient and easy to remove locations. It does not take much time to put out the parachute when everything is set up ahead of time. No pulling things out of lockers in appalling conditions.

My favorite drogue set up is the "Abbott Drogue" which works well for us running off in winds to fifty knots. We have a dry cockpit and setting up the drogue is easy. It gives our catamaran excellent directional stability and keeps the autopilot happy as well. It reduces our speed to four knots which is very comfortable in our cat. We were really uncomfortable surfing down the waves at high speeds, and the autopilot was not happy until we put out the drogue.

The "Abbott Drogue" is simple to construct from things that I have on board and it is cheap. I take large silicone hose and slide it down a 180 foot loop of one inch three strand nylon. The four foot long silicone hose functions as a messenger to carry a heavy weight down the nylon line to the back of the loop in a chafe free manner. On the silicone hose, I attach chain/dingy anchor/ or anything heavy that can be securely shackled/fixed to the messenger hose. Then I drop the silicone messenger in the water off the stern, and it zips down the line to the middle of the nylon loop and remains about 90 feet behind our catamaran. I can winch the one inch nylon in and out to adjust the distance behind the boat. If I need to I can add a second "Abbott Drogue" on another loop of line behind the boat if I want more power from the drogue or have it pull from a different location/distance behind the boat. I can put more stuff on the messenger/carrier hose if I want to increase the drag as well.

You can learn more about it at: MAXING OUT - JOIN TEAM MAXING OUT AS THEY SAIL AROUND THE WORLD ON THEIR PRIVILEGE 39 CATAMARAN - EXIT ONLY

This is a variation on dragging warps behind the boat, but the weights on the silicone hose messenger are what really gives the "Abbott Drogue" its bite. Here is a picture trailing the drogue in fifty knots of wind in the Atlantic Ocean.

We've done the same, but added 5 fenders to increase drag. Surprisingly, with few fenders slipped down the line, when one would clear the surface and start shooting forward, the other four held it back and the offending fender would plop back into position. Drag from these were kind of low, but it did act like a series drogue of sorts and sure helped give the autopilot a break.

I did have a knife ready to cut the entire Rube Goldberg contraption loose and deploy our real drogue in case it got out of hand.

Matt

[maxingout]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

We've done the same, but added 5 fenders to increase drag. Surprisingly, with few fenders slipped down the line, when one would clear the surface and start shooting forward, the other four held it back and the offending fender would plop back into position. Drag from these were kind of low, but it did act like a series drogue of sorts and sure helped give the autopilot a break.

I did have a knife ready to cut the entire Rube Goldberg contraption loose and deploy our real drogue in case it got out of hand.

Matt

Interesting Idea. I never thought of using the large fenders that we have as a type of drogue. I will look forward to giving it a try and see what happens.

Anything that increases the directional stability of the yacht and makes the autopilot happy is good as far as I am concerned (as long as there are not chafe problems that would destroy the rope loop).

Thinking outside the box and using what you have on board is a good exercise in self-reliance that comes in handy when sailing offshore. I like options, and this is one more option that could come in handy and it does not involve spending more money.

[daletournier]

Hi Dave, I've never heard of the '' Abbott drogue'' or warps called that before.
How do you attach the anchor or weight to the hose? I didn't understand that part.
I agree that mostly proper drogues or para anchors are more than is required, smaller warp setups to slow down a couple of notes would generally be suffice.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Dave, your blog makes for some interesting reading. Have you perchance tried a (car) tire drogue as espoused by some of the early multihull guru's like Jim Brown, & Chris White? I'm thinking that assuming it works, there's little downside, other than having to allocate storage space for the tire. And if one has to cut it away it doesn't hurt the wallet much.

On your blog, you mention that the motion of water in waves is vertical, but in fact it's circular. Which is a big part of the reason why when surfing down waves, at some point(s) the helm is unresponsive. As the speed of the water flow over the rudder drops to zero, since the water in that particular wave is moving forwards at the same speed as the boat is for a moment or three. The length of time for this being determined by the speed of the wave, & that of the boat.

[maxingout]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Hi Dave, I've never heard of the '' Abbott drogue'' or warps called that before.
How do you attach the anchor or weight to the hose? I didn't understand that part.
I agree that mostly proper drogues or para anchors are more than is required, smaller warp setups to slow down a couple of notes would generally be suffice.

The name "Abbott Drogue" evolved during a storm as we were sailing from Gibraltar to the Canary Islands during our transatlantic run. The storm lasted for several days, and fortunately the wind was from behind so that we could run with the wind and seas. As the seas got larger and the wind stronger, we started surfing in a manner that the autopilot could not handle. If something goes wrong at high surfing speeds, then capsize and pitchpole are a possibility and we needed to slow down. In addition, if you overwhelm the autopilot, it keeps trying to make course corrections and it strips the gears - then you are in a real mess having to do a transatlantic without an autopilot.

It was at that point we needed to make adjustments. I did not want to use a parachute since that was not necessary, and the Jordan drogue was not necessary. I needed slower speed and directional stability.

We looked at what we had on board Exit Only and we wanted something easy and cheap to do the job. We had a 180 warp but we knew that would not provide enough drag to improve our situation. I also knew that tying something to the warp would create a chafe situation and ruin a perfectly good 180 foot nylon line. So I decided to use a large piece of silicone hose that fit easily over the warp as a messenger to carry a weight down the warp in a chafe free manner. I cut a four foot length of hose and slid it over the warp. Then I took fifty feet of 3/8 inch high test chain and wrapped it tightly around the center of the hose in a big ball/oval, and I shackled the chain to itself so it could not unravel. Then I tied strong chord to the hose on both edges of the chain and the chord went back and forth over the chain so the chain could not move on the hose messenger. When the chain was fixed in position, we lowered the chain and hose carrier/messenger over the side, and in about two seconds it zoomed back to the middle of the 180 foot warp. Instantly, the boat speed dropped and our directional stability increased, and the autopilot started smiling.

When we finished our creation, we decided to give it the name "Abbott Drogue" since Abbott is our last name. It was our own private joke, but I still use the name "Abbott Drogue" to refer to our creation.

During that storm, we added a second shorter "Abbott Drogue" using dingy anchor and chain on a silicone hose messenger/carrier, and this drogue was closer to the boat giving additional control if needed.

If Jordan can have a drogue named after him, then Abbott can do the same thing on board Exit Only. When I talk to my crew and say it's time for the "Abbott Drogue", everyone instantly knows what I am talking about.

[maxingout]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Dave, your blog makes for some interesting reading. Have you perchance tried a (car) tire drogue as espoused by some of the early multihull guru's like Jim Brown, & Chris White? I'm thinking that assuming it works, there's little downside, other than having to allocate storage space for the tire. And if one has to cut it away it doesn't hurt the wallet much.

On your blog, you mention that the motion of water in waves is vertical, but in fact it's circular. Which is a big part of the reason why when surfing down waves, at some point(s) the helm is unresponsive. As the speed of the water flow over the rudder drops to zero, since the water in that particular wave is moving forwards at the same speed as the boat is for a moment or three. The length of time for this being determined by the speed of the wave, & that of the boat.

A tire would work great. The only problem would be chafe.

If I was using a tire, I would not use use the 180 foot warp as chafe would be a problem. Instead, I would create a bridle that attached to a single line, and at the end of the line would be the tire shackled to a large stainless steel eye. That would create a chafe free drogue that would be very effective.

The bridle is important in a catamaran. Our beam is 21 feet, and in order to maintain directional stability, the drogue needs to pull symmetrically on both hulls to keep the forces equal and the course straight.

So I like your tire suggestion a great deal, and the next time I do high latitude sailing, I just may take a tire along to give it a try.

I understand that the motion of the water molecules in a wave is trochoidal (oval), and the loss of rudder effectiveness in breaking seas is clear since there is minimal water going over the control surface (rudders). I felt that lack of control when we were surfing at high speed. Speed is especially dangerous when the rudders can't do their job. I felt that our catamaran was behaving in a "squirrely" fashion on those high speed surfs, and I knew that I had to do something to increase the directional stability. Hence, the drogue.

When you are standing at the helm, and the boat is not behaving in a safe manner, you know you have to make adjustments. It's more than just theoretical. You can feel it in the helm and the change in responsiveness of the boat. It's a bad feeling to have, and it gets worse if you don't do anything about it. You have to do something to restore control. That's why the drogue is so awesome. It feels like you are getting your rudder back as your directional stability has returned. It's a great tool to restore control in the prevailing conditions, and if things get worse you can move on to the parachute or Jordan drogue.

[hpeer]

Super thread!

A number of questions and comments arise.

Just thinking about our big boat, 44' steel cutter, cc, 37' lwl, 40,000#.

I can't imagine that beast surfing, maybe I'm wrong.
The one time I thought about a drouge I realized the boat was fine and conditions didn't warrent. I, however, was scared. It would have been excessively interesting had things been materially worse. Hopefully I'm much better at controlling the boat now.

Last year we talked with a 70ish gentleman who lost a boat off Hatteras recently. He was making way towards the coast, deployed a drogue, and was then pooped/knocked down which killed his engine and all electronics. He was eventually air lifted off. Too long a story.

The he point is, he felt, in retrospect, that he had deployed the drogue too early. The drogue stopped him and made him susceptible to what occurred. He felt he should have waited longer so that he would have had more forward movement retaining control. Just his thoughts.

I have a drogue, can't recall brand at the moment, possibly Sea Brake. It came with 300' of 7/8" nylon double braid. That seemed a bit meager so I bought 600' more, it am having trouble storing it. I made an aluminum reel, but it's a pain. I also carry 600' of 3/4" floating line.

I've a friend who was on a 39' Ericsson caught in a long gale enroute Nova Scotia to Bermuda. They didn't have a drogue but deployed various warps which they found ineffective. Eventually wrapped a prop during rescue IIRC. They sufffered knock down, injuries, were seeing structural fatigue and were eventually lifted by a freighter.