Open Source Anchor Project

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The main issue you have with a OSA, is verifying the integrity of the final product, whereas a manufacturer that cares, will invest in quality control and certified welders etc.

Furthermore a simple "bulk buy" would be sufficient to get the pricing right on an existing commercial anchor ( with its reviews etc)

I cant see the project having either a financial or mechanical advantage and users are unlikely to subject their boats as test beds for an unproven design.

OSH has its limits

Dave

For the sake of argument I am going to assume the guy you meet face to face and hire to spend a couple hours cutting, grinding, and welding your anchor is going to care about quality.

Likely more so than a manufacturer who outsources his product to the lowest bidder in China and offers a lifetime warranty knowing he can suffer a few loses and still make a profit even if it comes at the expense of your safety.

Does China have welding certifications? Do they meet our standards? Does the guy in a sweatshop somewhere in Chendong province have that Chinese certification and does he care about the quality of his product more than the guy in your hometown?

I am pretty sure the guy in your home town is certified to our standards, he likely is qualified to weld that crumbling infrastructure you drive your SUV on to get to work in the morning so I am thinking he is qualified to make an anchor.

Chances are good that same guy you hired to make your anchor has a fork truck capable of proof testing your anchor to 5,000 pounds. The benefit to you is that you can witness the test yourself instead of trusting the testing to the low bidder in China whom you will never meet.

I mean, I hear what you are saying but humans have been making their own anchors for thousands of years. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp? Used to be a time when people in this country actually produced real things, we gave it up for service-based industry?

Yeah, that's real forward thinking. What ever happen to go old American ingenuity and self-reliance? I fear we've lost our way. The rest of the world knows it but we can't see it for the forests of plastic-packaged consumer goods blocking our view.

Ha Ha Ha America!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmANxHJ6s9M

[goboatingnow]

Delancy, I applaud your perspective and Ive designed some OSH electronics myself.

The problem with a OSA, is that each user in effect becomes a once off project. You have people that know littler about mechanical issues, trying to buy steel, secure a good welder ( how do you tell) , then you need weld inspection and testing

I worked for years for a major player in the steel industry and I had access to rockwell testers, weld inspection etc. IN my view an anchor build needs to be approached with the same precision as a steel hull build.

And continuing to use your tested anchor after a 5000 lbs test, may not be a good idea. In reality you need to make two. ( or more) .

Furthermore , I seriously doubt you are properly factoring in costs correctly , The OSA person needs to purchase a particular steel, ( usually a high strength variant) using local steel suppliers, ( and steel specifications are not international) , you will usually have to buy it by the sheet, unless you happen to stumble across a fabricator that happens to have it.

Then you need it plasma cut, again setup charges and costs for small once off projects often kill these "dreams", then it needs an assembly jig and a good welder ( who is very unlikely to be familiar with anchor manufacturing). It may need stress relieving and finally galvanising, which again can be uncompetitive for a one off project.

To give you an example , I wanted a stainless steel step made , 1" stainless ANSI316, 4 bends( in a mandrel) four welds , acid and polish and a few holes drilled, €50 in materials, €200 assembly ( and that was a guy doing me a favour ) , note that I could have made 20 steps for about 25 a step !

Dave

[rebel heart]

Production (and cost) will matter as much as design.

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Delancy, I applaud your perspective and Ive designed some OSH electronics myself.

The problem with a OSA, is that each user in effect becomes a once off project. You have people that know littler about mechanical issues, trying to buy steel, secure a good welder ( how do you tell) , then you need weld inspection and testing

I worked for years for a major player in the steel industry and I had access to rockwell testers, weld inspection etc. IN my view an anchor build needs to be approached with the same precision as a steel hull build.

And continuing to use your tested anchor after a 5000 lbs test, may not be a good idea. In reality you need to make two. ( or more) .

Furthermore , I seriously doubt you are properly factoring in costs correctly , The OSA person needs to purchase a particular steel, ( usually a high strength variant) using local steel suppliers, ( and steel specifications are not international) , you will usually have to buy it by the sheet, unless you happen to stumble across a fabricator that happens to have it.

Then you need it plasma cut, again setup charges and costs for small once off projects often kill these "dreams", then it needs an assembly jig and a good welder ( who is very unlikely to be familiar with anchor manufacturing). It may need stress relieving and finally galvanising, which again can be uncompetitive for a one off project.

To give you an example , I wanted a stainless steel step made , 1" stainless ANSI316, 4 bends( in a mandrel) four welds , acid and polish and a few holes drilled, €50 in materials, €200 assembly ( and that was a guy doing me a favour ) , note that I could have made 20 steps for about 25 a step !

Dave

I live in New York City and bid projects including metal fab all day long, I know what stuff costs.

I also know that even though I haven't welded anything in fifteen years, if you give me a stick welder, a cutting torch, a grinder, a piece of chalk, a tape measure, and some chunks of 2 x 4 to make a jig to hold my parts while I tack them up, in two hours i can make an anchor I would trust my life to.

There is probably as much time in laying out the work than either the cutting or the welding, most of the time would be spent grinding chamfers for the welds and dressing the edges so it doesn't look like a total piece of crap. I would point out it doesn't have to look like a piece of jewelry to work. Two hours total would get me something basic that works for a hundred bucks for less. I can spray paint the bitch for five bucks with some Chinese spray paint, ha ha ha China.

The price I quoted for the A36 was from an online vendor who likely charges a premium for cut sizes. There's a chance you could find drop material from someone who has it or from a scrap yard for much less.

There is no law that says you can't make a good anchor out of mild steel, I think Mantus would agree. The nice thing about mild steel is that if it bends, it retains most of its ductility and you can bend it back yourself instead of being dependent on a manufacturer to follow through on their warranty promises.

Bet you a dollar West Marine takes any warranty claim anchor they recieve and sells it to a scrap guy for $0.10 a pound who sells it back to China to be recycled into some other steel object and in turn sells it back to us for a lot more than they paid for it.

All I need is a design that has been properly vetted by a qualified engineer for which I am willing to provide all the drafting for, as well as mock-ups to verify the CG and righting ability with. All the OSAP needs to distribute that design is the addition of a lawyer and a web designer. No one here is willing to match my time?

Also, I thought all anchors were or should be proof tested, you know like proof coil chain? Isn't that the point? Maybe I am wrong.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by Delancey

Yes, I did suggest I expected the final product would likely be a concave fluke Bügel type with a roll bar. I also said I was open to input.

What exactly is your input? The Spade is a fine design, but is too complicated to produce. The Fortress is a recognizably successful anchor but hardly constitutes a "new-generation" design.

If your contribution to the discussion is to suggest the OSA has a convex fluke than I am happy to oblige with a version as you suggest in the initial design draft. No problemo.

My input was simply you seem to pre-judge the outcome, you might be open but you actually specified what you expected.

Jonathan

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by JonJo

My input was simply you seem to pre-judge the outcome, you might be open but you actually specified what you expected.

Jonathan

I totally acceede your point. My bad to color the process with my expectations.

My experience with successful design development of creative projects is to get as many people with as wide a relevant knowledge base as possible to input their expertise and develop a couple different strategies.

Then you do a rough pass draft design to gauge the respective merits of the different approaches and pick the best one. Once that step is out of the way, it's a matter of crunching numbers and finessing details to make it work.

Given the number of opinionated experts on this forum and the cumulative knowledge and experience they represent, I wouldn't have expected it would be so hard to get a constructive dialogue going on what for me is a relatively simple project.

As before, give me ideas and I will put them down on paper for all to critique. At the very least I think its safe to say most everyone here has something to learn from the exercise.

There might be a lot less bickering around here if people had the kind intimate understanding of what they are talking about that they get from participating in the design development process of said thing.

You've demonstrated yourself fairly knowledgeable about the subject. Are you interested in participating in the process? What's your input? You want to see a version convex fluke? I think that's a great idea, let's do it.

[goboatingnow]

My experience with successful design development of creative projects is to get as many people with as wide a relevant knowledge base as possible to input their expertise and develop a couple different strategies.

maybe, but you can get this



whereas you could prefer, a single view, forcefully held

[Delancey]

Ha ha, I am smart enough to know I am not that smart. The funny thing is, when people go through the process they usually form a consensus on their own without anyone having to force their hand. People given the education required to understand what a good design is know it when the see it and rarely argue about it.

[nimblemotors]

If you make your own, you can copy an existing one that is already known to work well.
What is the point to design a new one?
'Open Source' is for software that is hidden and can't be modified.
To see the source of an anchor design, you just look at it.

[JonJo]

Someone has said that Spade is a bad example because it is so complicated to fabricate (yet Ultra appear to have made a reasonable attempt). Think a little bit outside that box (and follow Rocna's lead) and simply cast whatever fluke you desire. Complexity of shape is not an issue. Casting is cheap (in China). You could cast the flukes in China and add whatever else you desire in whichever market place you wish to address.

Someone else has said that Fortress is not 'New generation' yet it is full of new ideas:

viz

a shank that narrows on 2 planes (seen later on both Spade and Ultra)

use of lightweight alloys, without sacrificing strength (look at the thickness of the shank)

Sharp leading edges and toe

Fully demountable

It might be better to look at enduring designs on the market today and list their positive attributes (instead of (as normal) their negative attributes) list available manufacturing technologies, maybe list materials that are available now but were not available when the enduring designs were introduced.

Just a thought.

Jonathan

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

If you make your own, you can copy an existing one that is already known to work well.
What is the point to design a new one?
'Open Source' is for software that is hidden and can't be modified.
To see the source of an anchor design, you just look at it.

You have identified the route I would take if my goal was to make an anchor myself. However, in doing so I would potentially be committing piracy. One my stated objects for the project was to disincentivize piracy by making plans for a successful anchor design available to everyone.

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by JonJo

Someone has said that Spade is a bad example because it is so complicated to fabricate (yet Ultra appear to have made a reasonable attempt). Think a little bit outside that box (and follow Rocna's lead) and simply cast whatever fluke you desire. Complexity of shape is not an issue. Casting is cheap (in China). You could cast the flukes in China and add whatever else you desire in whichever market place you wish to address.

Someone else has said that Fortress is not 'New generation' yet it is full of new ideas:

viz

a shank that narrows on 2 planes (seen later on both Spade and Ultra)

use of lightweight alloys, without sacrificing strength (look at the thickness of the shank)

Sharp leading edges and toe

Fully demountable

It might be better to look at enduring designs on the market today and list their positive attributes (instead of (as normal) their negative attributes) list available manufacturing technologies, maybe list materials that are available now but were not available when the enduring designs were introduced.

Just a thought.

Jonathan

I get it that you are a fanboy of the Spade, as before I think it's a fine anchor. Truth be told I don't think there is an anchor on the market that is not without merit or that I wouldn't consider a successful anchor.

I personally have experience producing patterns for casting, including waxes for lost wax process, as well as experience making molds with green sand, classical investment, and ceramic shell. I have cast objects in bronze, aluminum, iron, and lead.

Based on my personal firsthand experience working with this method and materials, I think your suggestion totally misses the mark due to the amount of energy required to melt the metal, the need for a crucible to contain it, the level of expertise required in making the pattern and the mold, and the very real safety hazard presented by slinging around molten metal.

Likewise, the Fortress is a great anchor design which is based on the Danforth from the forties. The single thing that make the Fortress successful is its use of 6061 T6 aluminum extrusion. I personally have experience designing aluminum extrusions and have had produced thousands of linear feet of it for use in architectural applications.

Based on my personal firsthand experience working with this materials and method, I think your suggestion totally misses the mark due to the requirement of needing an expensive extrusion press and a die which also represents a significant capital expense. In the case of the Fortress I think they actually use two or three different extrusions but I have to check.

These are great suggestions though, thanks for bringing them up. We now have a clearer understanding of why metal fabrication (welding) is such a prolific skill and why casting or extruding are not appropriate methods for producing the OSA.

Remember if a guy on Pitcairn Island, or some other equally remote location, can't make this anchor using available tools and materials, we have failed as OSA designers.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_casting
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrusion

[bluemoose]

haha. I started reading the first page and thought it was a joke. I see now you are serious. I suppose a few generic "open source" plans out on the net would be interesting. hell, I would build a few just for the welding practice. That said, I would not trust my life or my boat to my welding, but I would to a certified welder's. That said, with Defender offering 33# claw anchors for $50 earlier this year, why would I want to build rather than buy?

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by bluemoose

haha. I started reading the first page and thought it was a joke. I see now you are serious. I suppose a few generic "open source" plans out on the net would be interesting. hell, I would build a few just for the welding practice. That said, I would not trust my life or my boat to my welding, but I would to a certified welder's. That said, with Defender offering 33# claw anchors for $50 earlier this year, why would I want to build rather than buy?

You trust you life to a $50 anchor produced by the low bidder in China? Cool by me, we all make choices. Really the project is an academic exercise as much as anything else. Hopefully we can all learn something from it. The point is that knowledge is power, why not share?

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by JonJo

Someone has said that Spade is a bad example because it is so complicated to fabricate (yet Ultra appear to have made a reasonable attempt). Think a little bit outside that box (and follow Rocna's lead) and simply cast whatever fluke you desire. Complexity of shape is not an issue. Casting is cheap (in China). You could cast the flukes in China and add whatever else you desire in whichever market place you wish to address.

Someone else has said that Fortress is not 'New generation' yet it is full of new ideas:

viz

a shank that narrows on 2 planes (seen later on both Spade and Ultra)

use of lightweight alloys, without sacrificing strength (look at the thickness of the shank)

Sharp leading edges and toe

Fully demountable

It might be better to look at enduring designs on the market today and list their positive attributes (instead of (as normal) their negative attributes) list available manufacturing technologies, maybe list materials that are available now but were not available when the enduring designs were introduced.

Just a thought.

Jonathan

Hey, you seem to have done your research. Are you sure that Ronca casts their fluke? It is possible but would surprise me. I have not actually inspected one in person, only looked at drawings and photos and I frankly don't understand why you would cast that fluke.