Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-01-2016, 03:30   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Cruising around the world. Currently SE Asia
Boat: Bristol 82
Posts: 34
Not so ideal windlass

I have a GWAS ideal windlass which I have been trying to get going for two years. Customer support from ideal Windlass has been nothing short of a joke. in the end we have managed to get it going after spending thousands literally pulling it apart and totally rebuilding windlass and motor. Ideal did tell me that it would be 115 or 230v. Electrician tells me it's 230v.
So the problem is that it seems to have no torque and no breaking out power. If I hang the 120lb anchor over the bow roller it doesn't even have the power to put it through the roller. If I give it even 1 foot of extra slack it can get a run up and put it through the roller. If it's buried in sand that simply can't pull it out of the sand. If I motor forward to give it some slack you can get a run up and seems to be able to break free. Obviously I would normally do this anyway but I asked the question because on previous boats I've virtually been able to pull the bow underwater with the power of the winch. These were all doc windlass. Boat yard guy has suggested that it's because the motor is an AC motor, and has pointed it out that it's exactly the same with a circular saw when you jam the circular saw. The motor does sound like a jamed circular saw when it's trying to pull the anchor out with no slack in the line.
So could this be because it's actually 115 V not 230 or is it likely to be just because it's an a.c. motor. Or could it be word wrongly or be something to do with the start capacitors.

My concern is that under certain conditions I may not be able to generate slack in the line or they might be so much weight on the anchor line that the motor just won't turn.
__________________

__________________
cha0s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2016, 03:52   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Cruising around the world. Currently SE Asia
Boat: Bristol 82
Posts: 34
Re: Not so ideal windlass

Typos.

Could it be wired wrongly?

Previous boats which had massive breaking out power had dc motors not doc motors.
__________________

__________________
cha0s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2016, 18:07   #3
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Oregon to Alaska
Boat: Wheeler Shipyard 83' ex USCG
Posts: 1,873
Re: Not so ideal windlass

I have forerunner of a Plath windlass with a 1-1/2 hp 240/120 ac motor. The only difference in voltage use is the amp draw is double for 120. I have a 200# anchor and 1/2" chain. I usually anchor in 25+ fathoms and have no problem breaking out and lifting that anchor and 600' of chain. But my windlass is gear reduction. I don't know the ratio. The Ideal windlasses I have seen look to be direct drive.
It sounds like the motor is too small or the windlass needs a different gear ratio.
__________________
Lepke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2016, 16:20   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Cruising around the world. Currently SE Asia
Boat: Bristol 82
Posts: 34
Re: Not so ideal windlass

So I have been chatting around the boat yard about this issue and someone has suggested the slow speed and lack of breaking out power is because I'm running is on a SINGLE PHASE 230v 50hz generator, and as it's a US boat (and windlass) it is designed to be 230v 60hz 3 phase (US 3 phase).
I know that there will be a slight reduction in speed considering the drop from 60hz to 50hz but I don't believe it would account for a drop in power (breaking out power or torque). The gearing is definitely not an issue. It's heavily geared to the point that when there is no load on the winch you can actually hand turn the windlass by turning the armature of the motor.

So would single phase 230v power to a 3 phase 230v account for loss of power? And speed?
__________________
cha0s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-01-2016, 21:23   #5
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Oregon to Alaska
Boat: Wheeler Shipyard 83' ex USCG
Posts: 1,873
Re: Not so ideal windlass

3 phase is 3 legs of 120 volt. If you are running a 3 phase motor on single phase, I'm surprised the motor will start, let alone pull chain. Besides the phase difference, you've lost at least 1/3 of the power. I've never seen a 3 phase start on single phase w/o special wiring or controls.
The easy solution is a single phase motor. Probably with 1/3 more horsepower rating. If not a rotary phase converter, if you have room. And they're not cheap. They are made for industry to run 3 phase motors where only single phase power is available. You can make one with a 3 phase motor as big or bigger than the motor you want to run. Often used 3 phase motors are cheap to buy used from surplus stores, Ebay, etc.The wiring is simple. From your 3p windlass you have 3 120v legs + ground to connect to the new 3p motor. It has 3 legs, too. From your power panel 2 legs of 120v + ground connect to any 2 of the 3 legs of the new motor. When energized the new motor may hum, but won't turn. Grainger sells a kit to start the motor, or you can wrap a line around the shaft and start it like a small engine. As long as the new motor is turning, it creates the 3rd leg of 120v needed to run your winch. A small amount of power is used to turn the additional motor. Your normal winch controls should work fine.
To pull up the anchor, with a phase converter, you have your generator running, switch on the new motor and get it turning, operate your winch. The new motor can run continuously and draws little power w/o the winch running. With the winch running you will draw about 1/3 more power. If you go this way, you can contact me. Probably stuff on the web, too.
__________________
Lepke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-01-2016, 21:49   #6
Registered User
 
Muckle Flugga's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aboard the Ocean wave
Boat: 55' sloop.
Posts: 1,426
Re: Not so ideal windlass

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lepke View Post
3 phase is 3 legs of 120 volt. If you are running a 3 phase motor on single phase, I'm surprised the motor will start, let alone pull chain. Besides the phase difference, you've lost at least 1/3 of the power. I've never seen a 3 phase start on single phase w/o special wiring or controls.
The easy solution is a single phase motor. Probably with 1/3 more horsepower rating. If not a rotary phase converter, if you have room. And they're not cheap. They are made for industry to run 3 phase motors where only single phase power is available. You can make one with a 3 phase motor as big or bigger than the motor you want to run. Often used 3 phase motors are cheap to buy used from surplus stores, Ebay, etc.The wiring is simple. From your 3p windlass you have 3 120v legs + ground to connect to the new 3p motor. It has 3 legs, too. From your power panel 2 legs of 120v + ground connect to any 2 of the 3 legs of the new motor. When energized the new motor may hum, but won't turn. Grainger sells a kit to start the motor, or you can wrap a line around the shaft and start it like a small engine. As long as the new motor is turning, it creates the 3rd leg of 120v needed to run your winch. A small amount of power is used to turn the additional motor. Your normal winch controls should work fine.
To pull up the anchor, with a phase converter, you have your generator running, switch on the new motor and get it turning, operate your winch. The new motor can run continuously and draws little power w/o the winch running. With the winch running you will draw about 1/3 more power. If you go this way, you can contact me. Probably stuff on the web, too.

What Lepke says. Are you really trying to run a 3 phase motor with single phase generator?
__________________
‘Structural engineering is the art of modeling materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyse as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess in such a way that the public at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.’
Muckle Flugga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2016, 08:31   #7
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Schooner Chandlery's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: home port Washington DC
Boat: SS Crocker design #131
Posts: 983
Re: Not so ideal windlass

I do suggest you call the company again and get an answer there about your particular motor. If the motor you have is original to the windlass or an authorized replacement, it will be quick for them to tell you by model# of motor if you should be running 3 phase or single phase. There is only one fellow there who has deep history/knowledge of the older windlass motors--I believe his name is Cliff--and he should be able to assist you.

You can also take the motor to a reputable electrical shop where they can load it up and let you know if the motor is functioning properly at load.

Best of luck, overall. The Ideal Windlasses are very strong and capable especially for larger boats and ground tackle, so I hope you get it sorted out soon.
__________________
"The only noble thing a man can do with money is to build a schooner." Robert Louis Stevenson

Schooner Chandlery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2016, 22:20   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Cruising around the world. Currently SE Asia
Boat: Bristol 82
Posts: 34
Re: Not so ideal windlass

Just thought I would give an update on this problem. Finally got a response from the manufacturer, who said that the issue was because we were running 240 V 50 Hz thecentrifugal switch was not kicking in so the motor could never run properly. Took the motor to a rewinding specialist who rebuilt it for me. He confirmed that whilst it is running a little slower the centrifugal switch is operating fine but the start windings were fried due to being wired incorrectly by the electrician. This has now been fixed and all seems to be fine.
Apparently lack of breakout power is due to capacitors not working which can be due to the capacitors being fried or a break in the start circuit.
__________________
cha0s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2017, 19:40   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Cruising around the world. Currently SE Asia
Boat: Bristol 82
Posts: 34
Re: Not so ideal windlass

So the saga continues with this winch. We have now blown up (cooked) a brand new Websterbeke generator and the windlass is no longer working. The issue seems to be that it's pulling over 35amps at 220v at startup. This is way more than it should and the generator can't cope. So we have been running it using the 'manual override' shaft which pokes out the back of the motor. If we attach an 18v drill to the back of the motor we can get the anchor up much easier than using the supposedly much more powerful motor. I'm not sure if this will prove to be problem in the long term though. So we are now in the process of permanently mounting a 12v to motor to the back of the windlass and will run it like this. If I had my time over I would have thrown the thing overboard $15,000 ago and bought a new windlass.
__________________
cha0s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2017, 21:32   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: canada
Posts: 1,888
Re: Not so ideal windlass

how big is this windlass? 35a at 230v is a huge draw...

FYI there is no such thing as 230v 3phase US. 230/240v is single phase. 208 is 3 phase. and is not common unless you're 100'+ boat. not common on docks.

if it says 120 or 230 they are both single phase. with 2 wires. (plus ground) 3 phase would be 4 input power wires (plus ground)

the hz may be an issue if it's a 60hz motor running at 50hz
__________________
smac999 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2017, 21:52   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Cruising around the world. Currently SE Asia
Boat: Bristol 82
Posts: 34
Re: Not so ideal windlass

Definitely single phase. Definitely 230v.
There was some earlier confusion when trying to get to the bottom of why's the thing wouldn't go.
It's a 3hp baldor motor I think. It's physically pretty huge but doesn't lift as much as a 1000w 12v dc one. (It should, it just doesn't)
I've had 4 different electricians over the last 3 years who have been defeated, and have overloaded 2 generators and burnt out the windings on the motor requiring rewinding twice. (Before we discovered the manual over ride /emergency anchor retreival with battery drill technique - which is now our main mode of operation)
When it was last rewound we rebuilt the centrifugal switch and added more windings to make drop in Hz (which is a thing the motor rewinder says he's done many times).
The gears inside look like new. I'd like to remove the motor and put a new one on but can't afford to ship from the US. Can buy local motors but can't make it mate up to the gears/windlass.
__________________

__________________
cha0s is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
wind, windlass

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
When Ideal is not ideal - Cheap source of good hose clamps? svlamorocha Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 29 19-12-2014 08:29
Want To Buy: Rope Capstan for Ideal Windlass msoneji Classifieds Archive 0 06-01-2010 11:54
Ideal Windlass Repair echo455 Anchoring & Mooring 3 22-09-2008 09:16



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:05.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.