New Anchoring Setup for Bavaria 40 Cruiser

[sy_gilana]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

If the chain is strong enough for the boat there is no problems using thinner chain with a heavier anchor.

The reason to oversize the anchor is allow for holding in poor ground. The maximum load is dependent on the boat (size windage etc) and wind strength.

If you look say at the Dashews, they have always put the maximum weight into the anchor and tried to minimise the weight in the chain. I think this a good philosophy.

On their current 64 foot power boat they use a 110kg (243 lbs) Rocna and 10mm G7 chain.

Hi Noelex, Just for the record, I disagree with this philosophy. I respect Steve, I know him, and Linda, and Sarah, but I disagree.
There was a woman cruising here recently who espoused the virtues of this setup. I argued. She sent me piles of sums, done by another person. The sums were mathematically correct but asked the wrong questions. Yes I know with more chain you can get a lower angle, but most of the time, you cant farm that much chain out, there are other restrictions. I finally challenged her " OK my boat with a xxKg model x anchor and 40m of 1/2 inch BBB chain, and yours with SAME anchor and 40m of 8mm G7 chain, you anchor, I anchor, and we tie the boats stern to stern and start winching them together. Same bottom..."
She changed the subject to guns...

IF you follow that logic, lets say you change the G7 to spectra line, ie lighter and stronger still, and a huge anchor. I say you will lose the anchor someday soon, or the cleats. If the logic is sound, then imagine an incredibly strong G999 chain, that is 2mm link size, with a 500Kg anchor?

Somewhere the logic gets flawed. I say its where you can only deploy 30 m in a 5 m depth, THEN I want heeeavy chain.

Oh, sheesh here we go again, anchors and chains...

[Neptune's Gear]

Hi Keiron,
I have a (much) older Farr 40ft cruiser, made in Australia, called a Phase 4.

Similar size to yours, we use a Rocna 20KG, and carry either 60m of 10mm chain, or 110m of 10mm chain (when offshore). This has proven an excellent combination with very few issues, and over 1000 nights at anchor, all over the Pacific and Indian oceans.

I've looked at the new Farr Bavarias - totally agree on the build quality improvements! All I can say is get a jennaker!! Your boat, like mine, should regularly exceed hullspeed. Our fastest sailing speed is about 10knots, under Jennaker, about 120 deg apparent, 25knots of true wind. Max speed so far is 18.6 Knots, but that's surfing, not sailing! Even though my boat is now 25 years old, no plans to change it, but, if I did, another Farr would be at the top of the list. Great Boats!

[roetter]

Originally Posted by sy_gilana

....

IF you follow that logic, lets say you change the G7 to spectra line, ie lighter and stronger still, and a huge anchor. I say you will lose the anchor someday soon, or the cleats. If the logic is sound, then imagine an incredibly strong G999 chain, that is 2mm link size, with a 500Kg anchor?

Somewhere the logic gets flawed. I say its where you can only deploy 30 m in a 5 m depth, THEN I want heeeavy chain.

Oh, sheesh here we go again, anchors and chains...

I'd go with NOLEX and opt for the lighter chain and the lager anchor, even with a short rode out. Chain does not hold the anchor to the bottom. I want chain for abbrasion resistance, nothing else.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by sy_gilana

Hi Noelex, Just for the record, I disagree with this philosophy.

There is nothing wrong with that. By discussing these issues everyone learns something.
I think there is perhaps some misunderstanding about the issue. No one is saying heavier chain does not help. At low/moderate forces the extra weight helps lower the angle of the pull on the anchor stock and this always helps holding. Once again at low/moderate it also provides some sock absorption and dampening. These effects are real they help the anchor initially set and with common gradual increase in windspeed that accompanies bad weather.

However the effects of catanery disappear as the wind becomes strong.

Most modern anchors cope with low/moderate windspeeds very reliably so the improvements here has little impact.

Thicker chain does slightly inhibit the diving of the anchor, but that is its only drawback.

The question is not "does heavy chain help" but does the improvement in justify the significant extra weight. Is there a better approach than heavy chain and a light anchor?

Originally Posted by sy_gilana

I finally challenged her " OK my boat with a xxKg model x anchor and 40m of 1/2 inch BBB chain, and yours with SAME anchor and 40m of 8mm G7 chain, you anchor, I anchor, and we tie the boats stern to stern and start winching them together. Same bottom..."
She changed the subject to guns...

I don't think anyone would argue that your boat with the 1/2 chain would win. However 1/2 inch chain weighs about 3.9 kg/m, 8mm is 1.45 kg/m so your boat has 156 kg of chain mine has 58 kg. There is a 98 kg difference and that assumes we only have 40m of chain. Most cruising boats would carry more, which would be in the chain locker. So the weight penalty is even more significant.

Give me an xx + 98 kg anchor and I think you might be the one changing the subject to guns

Of course these numbers are totally impractical. An anchor that is 98 kg heavier would not be usable for our sized boats. Changing between 12mm and 8mm chain is also not viable. However, no matter what practical example I can think of adding more weight to the anchor with thinner chain is the solution with higher holding power.

The usual way this manifests itself is to reduce the chain by one size (and changing to HT chain if needed), and increasing the anchor weight by typical, one or two sizes. For most boats this gives an enormous saving in weight so people often increase the amount of chain they carry as well. As you say longer chain cannot always be used, but the ability to use a long scope even in deep water is often a real practical gain in bad conditions.

We do need to consider some practical implications such as physically fitting a larger anchor on the bow roller. The effects on the anchor winch (the lighter chain reduces the impact). It should also be remembered that the chain is carried a bit further back than the anchor in monohulls and a lot further back in multis.

Can you think of single practical example where the boat that took the approach of reducing the chain size by one step and putting that weight into a reasonable increase in anchor size would not win your hypothetical winching the boats together challenge?

Originally Posted by sy_gilana

If the logic is sound, then imagine an incredibly strong G999 chain, that is 2mm link size, with a 500Kg anchor?

It would not be practical to fit such a large anchor and we do have to consider practicalities. The fact we could hypothetically use such an enormous anchor, with its enormous holding power, without increasing the overall weight, tells me that the principal of reducing the rode weight, (providing strength and abrasion resistance are acceptable) and adding this weight to a larger anchor is a sound philosophy.

[chasfgr]

<<Would you want to hang a 25kilo anchor on an 8mm chain??>>

Why not, the SWL of the chain easily exceeds the holding power of the anchor. And that's not going into the realms of HT steels.

[chasfgr]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

Thanks for the input on the chain size matter. Currently we have 50m of 8mm DIN766/ISO818-3 G4/BBB chain with our 16kg Delta. This gives us a maximum anchoring depth at 4:1 of 10.5m. This works fine for our anchoring habits at the moment but if I upgrade the anchor to a larger/better one I would like to increase the maximum depth we can anchor in to open up newer locations.

So I was thinking to replace the chain only with 50m of chain plus 50+m of rode spliced to it. As we would be changing the chain it made sense to step up to the next size. Well that was the thinking until I found out I'd have to change the gypsy and possibly the motor. Given this new info maybe we can keep the 8mm if I can figure out how to splice Anchorplait rode to it myself. Or does anyone have an alternate method of attaching
chain to chain or chain to rode?

Cheers

Keiron

It's actually very easy, providing you don't go above 14mm 8-plait with 8mm chain, 12mm 8-plait with 7mm and 10mm with 6mm chain.
Detailed on Jimmy Green Marine website. Take 9 links length of 2-plait and unravel to twins. Put 4 twins of each through the 1st link, then alternate the 2 pairs from either side of the other links, until you have no more.
It's almost impossible with used 8-plait.
It's equally easy to splice, though I've never tried end-to-end.

[DoubleWhisky]

Hello Keiron

Sorry for being back late, but had not much time to go through my spredsheets and anchor sizing charts

The following is just a bit of my thinking loud…

Let’s start from anchor.

Knox sizing chart show a 18 kg anchor as suitable for Bavaria 40, but with a disclaimer: “This Knox anchor is suitable for use in winds up to force 8 when there are only moderate non-breaking waves. For more severe conditions choose a heavier Knox Anchor. ”
So 18 kg Knox anchor is recommended up to 40 knots of wind and above the 27 kg anchor is appropriate, but we do not know what is the limit. Next step up in production line is 36 kg anchor.

Rocna sizing chart advice is 25 kg anchor. In their knowledge base You can find an info, as the sizing recommendations are valid up to 50 knots of wind with associated surge, and for heavier conditions the 33 kg Rocna is recommended. Again – we do not know what is the upper limit. Next step up in production line is 40 kg anchor.

Let’s see what is the approximate load on the anchor tackle for different given speeds of wind.
There are different suggestions around, how to calculate the load.
It is well worth remember, that quite popular ABYC tables are actually not the real calculations of the load on the rode, but rather a recommendations for anchor cable sizing, with in-built safety factor.
So I prefer – for my own calculations – use the method suggested by Professor John Knox, well renowned authority in all things anchoring related and designer of Knox anchor.

For a boat of Bavaria 40 size Professor Knox gives us the following numbers:

40 kts 460 kg
50 kts 720 kg
60 kts 1040 kg
70 kts 1410 kg
80 kts 1840 kg
90 kts 2330 kg
100 kts 2880 kg

So increase of the wind by 10 knots, from 40 knots to 50 knots is resulting in about 50 % increase of the load on the rode. Again, increase of the wind by successive 10 knots, from 50 to 60 knots is resulting in about 50 % increase of the load on the rode.
You did inform us about experiencing the winds up to 50 knots while anchored. I think that a factor of next 10 knots for a safety will be not an overestimation, so Your rode should be sized for the winds up to 60 knots. Knox anchor of 27 kg will be probably good for the winds of some 50+ knots, Knox anchor of 36 kg will be probably good for the winds of some 60+ knots, Rocna 25 kg should be good up to 50 knots and Rocna 33 should be good up to some 60 knots.
Of course, in close to ideal conditions (well holding ground, excellent set, strong, but steady wind, no windshifts, no tide, long scope, all chain rode, good snubber, no breakers) each of them can hold in much more of the wind, but it is difficult to rely on close to ideal conditions.
So – just after examining the sizing charts my choice would be Knox (which is Your preferred anchor) of 36 kg, or Rocna of 33 kg.

Using “Snowpetrel coefficient” discussed in other thread here, the all-round cruising, new gen anchor for Your boat should be over 29 kg, so 36 kg Knox and 33 kg Rocna are good, some safety factor included.
The anchor suitable for Med mooring and occasional anchoring out in more settled weather should be not less than 25 kg.
So, for such a limited use Knox 27 kg or Rocna 25 kg should do. On the other hand – it is a mistake I did myself. I chosen an anchor suitable for limited scope of conditions and situations and now I’m in a need of change. Expensive error.
Sooner or later You will find that bigger is better (and cheaper in a long run) I’m quite sure.

Let’s look at the chain.

Here are the Safe Working Loads and Minimum Breaking Loads for different grades of chain:

BBB 8mm SWL 750 kg MBL 3000 kg
G 40 8 mm SWL 1000 kg MBL 4000 kg
G 43 HT 8mm SWL 1300 kg MBL 4000 kg
G 70 8 mm SWL 1400 kg MBL 7000 kg
So, if You are sizing the anchor for the winds up to 60 knots, You need G 43 HT or G 70 chain (to remain with 8 mm).

But there are other solutions also.

You can go for a stainless steel G 50 chain.

G 50 SS 8 mm SWL 1700 kg MBL 5100 kg

You can also find the high tested German made G 50 SS chain (produced purposefully as an anchor chain) with the SWL of 2500 kg.

Next You can go for a G 60 Duplex, rated for the SWL of about 50 % of MBL (also German made as an anchor chain).

G 60 DUPLEX 8 mm SWL 3200 kg MBL 6400 kg

German CROMOX NAUTIC anchor chains with only 8 mm size will give You SWL good for 90 – 100 knots of wind (in the case of Your boat). It is good enough safety factor, more than galvanized, even high tensile chains can provide.
Next thing – with Your chain locker (or in Your case rather chain well) SS or Duplex chain will allow You to retain all chain rode, as a piling and blocking is not the case for these chains, and You can fit more of it to the locker. I think the all chain rode is far superior to the mixed one and retaining it should be of importance.

Pricing for CROMOX NAUTIC chains is reasonable, and when You take into account costs of regalvanisation (high for G 43 HT and rather prohibitive for G 70) it can appear even attractive


So…

My personal choices would be:

Rocna 33 kg or Knox 36 kg as all around cruising anchors;
Rocna 25 kg or Knox 27 kg as the anchors for Med mooring and occasional anchoring out in settled conditions (if I ever again would be tempted to own such an anchor. On the other hand I readily admit it is sufficient for most of the time);
All chain rode.
CROMOX NAUTIC G 60 Duplex Steel 8 mm chain (as first choice);
CROMOX NAUTIC G 50 Stainless Steel 8 mm chain (as second choice);
G 70 high tensile galvanized chain (as third choice).

Of course – it is only my thinking loud…

Cheers,

Tomasz

[kas_1611]

Tomasz,

If that is you just thinking aloud I wonder what insights you come up with when you are thinking seriously

I will have to look into the capacity of my anchor windlass before I make any final decisions as I need to be sure my motor will handle the extra load of the larger anchor. Currently it has a 1000w motor which I would hope is powerful enough for a 25kg but not sure about above that.

Also need to get the tape measure out to check the clearances between bow roller and the gypsy. It would be embarressing to buy a bigger anchor only for it not to fit

Huge thanks for all your efforts and I hope other Bavaria owners will find this as useful as I have.

Cheers

Keiron

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

Tomasz,

If that is you just thinking aloud I wonder what insights you come up with when you are thinking seriously

Cheers

Keiron

Oh, then I just make a f#(k ups, like buing 40 kg Rocna instead of 55 kg

[chasfgr]

The diametrically opposed views about chain-weight vs anchor weight arte interesting.
If we start with a point of general agreement - you need the weight on the seabed not in the boat.
This can be achieved in two ways:- a massive anchor or heavy chain.
However, both arguments seem to miss several expert voices piping in the wind, originally Alain Fraysse and here (from the Knox site)
Springs - Knox Anchors - The top performing New Generation Anchor for safe and secure anchoring

So I'm of the impression that both extreme schools are missing a point by argument about small parts of a complex system.
It was not until I incorporated a textile rode in my system that I was able to tame my boat and (almost completely) eliminate her dragging and that is with a universally denigrated CQR.
On the whole I go along with noelex's idea to maximise the weight of the anchor - after all that's really on the bottom.
In my case HT chain is a ridiculous expenditure - a nominal 3 tonne x 9.45m yacht, with G40 8mm is will be unlikely to reach ULB of the chain.
So I could go for 6 or 7mm, have to change my gipsy, spend quite a lot on new chain - so I've ditched 15m of chain, replaced that with 50m of multiplait anchor warp and am replacing the worn-out CQR with a Mantus of the same 25lb weight.
Unlike others' boats mine is a lightweight, very easily unbalanced by extreme weight in the ends and my anchor winch, an SL Anchorman, grievously underpowered.

PS Tomasz - couldn't find the anchor sizing on the "new" Knox site, could you help?

[kas_1611]

Product range - Knox Anchors - The top performing New Generation Anchor for safe and secure anchoring

Anchor dimensions - Knox Anchors - The top performing New Generation Anchor for safe and secure anchoring

Hope that helps Chas

Keiron

[chasfgr]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

Product range - Knox Anchors - The top performing New Generation Anchor for safe and secure anchoring

Anchor dimensions - Knox Anchors - The top performing New Generation Anchor for safe and secure anchoring

Hope that helps Chas

Keiron

Thanks for that Keiron - interesting that Knox and Mantus both quote far lighter anchors for my boat than the other new-age anchors.
Perhaps a critical mass threshold - certainly in my e-mail exchanges with Alain Poiraud, he inferred that such a limen existed in his theories.
One problem with most anchor sizing charts is that they specify LOA and (possibly) boat weight. However we all know that the most important factor in any anchoring calculation is the drag coefficient of the vessel.
With a 13.9m mast, mine has a drag coefficient outside the envelope of most anchor-size tables.
All I know is that @ 50 knots my boat exerts 835daN - from various tests the 25lb Mantus appears to be good for 850.
I've been in 25 gusting 48 knots on a 6kg Danforth for 3 days - admittedly on 25m 7mm chain and 40m x 12mm warp, in 6m water. A superb soft sand bottom and a unidirectional pull.

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by chasfgr

The diametrically opposed views about chain-weight vs anchor weight arte interesting.
If we start with a point of general agreement - you need the weight on the seabed not in the boat.
This can be achieved in two ways:- a massive anchor or heavy chain.
However, both arguments seem to miss several expert voices piping in the wind, originally Alain Fraysse and here (from the Knox site)
Springs - Knox Anchors - The top performing New Generation Anchor for safe and secure anchoring

So I'm of the impression that both extreme schools are missing a point by argument about small parts of a complex system.
It was not until I incorporated a textile rode in my system that I was able to tame my boat and (almost completely) eliminate her dragging and that is with a universally denigrated CQR.
On the whole I go along with noelex's idea to maximise the weight of the anchor - after all that's really on the bottom.
In my case HT chain is a ridiculous expenditure - a nominal 3 tonne x 9.45m yacht, with G40 8mm is will be unlikely to reach ULB of the chain.
So I could go for 6 or 7mm, have to change my gipsy, spend quite a lot on new chain - so I've ditched 15m of chain, replaced that with 50m of multiplait anchor warp and am replacing the worn-out CQR with a Mantus of the same 25lb weight.
Unlike others' boats mine is a lightweight, very easily unbalanced by extreme weight in the ends and my anchor winch, an SL Anchorman, grievously underpowered.

Personally I'm not extreme iin my attitude, but sometime we do need to make some compromises. I would prefer to have 10 mm. chain on 40 footer, but the 8 mm. is often a way to have an all chain rode of desired length without major modifications to the boat. Anchor lockers are often quite small.

Originally Posted by chasfgr

Thanks for that Keiron - interesting that Knox and Mantus both quote far lighter anchors for my boat than the other new-age anchors.
Perhaps a critical mass threshold - certainly in my e-mail exchanges with Alain Poiraud, he inferred that such a limen existed in his theories.
One problem with most anchor sizing charts is that they specify LOA and (possibly) boat weight. However we all know that the most important factor in any anchoring calculation is the drag coefficient of the vessel.
With a 13.9m mast, mine has a drag coefficient outside the envelope of most anchor-size tables.
All I know is that @ 50 knots my boat exerts 835daN - from various tests the 25lb Mantus appears to be good for 850.
I've been in 25 gusting 48 knots on a 6kg Danforth for 3 days - admittedly on 25m 7mm chain and 40m x 12mm warp, in 6m water. A superb soft sand bottom and a unidirectional pull.

Recommendation of 25 lb anchor for Your boat is valid only in the lunch hook application. As a "cruising anchor" 35 lb is recommended and even 5 lb as a "storm anchor".

It is not less than 33 lb recommendation for Rocna or 25 lb for Manson Supreme or Boss.

Knox recommendation is 20 lb, but stating that: "This Knox anchor is suitable for use in winds up to force 8 when there are only moderate non-breaking waves. For more severe conditions choose a heavier Knox anchor".The next heavier Knox anchor, recommended for 40+ knots of wind, is 30 lb.
In fact Knox, Rocna and Mantus recommendations are very similar, with Mantus being rather most conservative. Just there is need to read all fine print attached to the sizing charts (sometime You need to dig for it thorough the web site).

Cheers,

Tomasz

[kas_1611]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

Just there is need to read all fine print attached to the sizing charts (sometime You need to dig for it thorough the web site).

As they say "always read the fine print"

One of the things I think we can all take from all the various anchoring threads is the manufacturers tables are only suitable for ideal, average conditions. Which is fine for most weekend sailors. For the rest of us the rule has to be go one size higher than the table recommends for average conditions and 2 sizes up for security in storm conditions.

Keiron

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

As they say "always read the fine print"

One of the things I think we can all take from all the various anchoring threads is the manufacturers tables are only suitable for ideal, average conditions. Which is fine for most weekend sailors. For the rest of us the rule has to be go one size higher than the table recommends for average conditions and 2 sizes up for security in storm conditions.

Keiron

I think it depend on manufacturer. For example - I can be happy with Mantus recommendations for my boat.
I'm happy now with recommended Rocna size, but I want upgrade by one size for anchoring out in demanding spots (Noelex style).
On the other hand recommended Delta for my boat is undersized by three sizes for average conditions and by four sizes for more demanding spots.
So the principle of going just one or two sizes up is not valid (in my opinion) for the manufacturers targeting mass production builders as their main market.

Cheers,

Tomasz