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Old 25-08-2008, 13:53   #1
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Need New Anchor System (Willard)

This is a post asking for help in making an new anchoring system. During the course of the bowsprit/ bow reglassing, I removed the existing anchoring system.

The original system had a Nilsson Windlass on the sprit at a slight angle to the long axis of the boat so to maintain a straight (as much as it is possible) line to the double anchor roller. The final angle was set to be a compromise between dropping the chain through a hole in the sprit and the line to the anchor roller. It was a mess I did not like and I suspect the arrangement contributed to some of the structural problems. The anchor roller was originally located about half way between the tip of the sprit and bow of the boat – about 4 feet from the bow and 4 feet from there to the tip.

This original system distributed the force from anchoring to (a) first the anchor roller, and then to (b) the gypsy on the windlass. However, when I got the boat, the windlass was removed (see pic) and line was wrapped around the bollard to the chain and off the roller. Chain was kept on deck.

I have read here and in other book that is a lousy way to go, that the force of the chain at anchor ought to hit a snubber that is in turn connected to the Bollard/ Sampson post.

I need an anchoring system for my boat. I have taken her out now three times deluding myself that the rear anchor tied to the base of the stanchion could be used in a pinch. Can’t use that rationale anymore after listening to a brief Chan 16 and 68 conversations this weekend.

Right now, I have a Bollard at the base of the sprit. I do not know the holding strength of the bollard. It is bolted through the sprit, through the deck, to a teak backing plate I made. The area directly under the bollard is new glass construction. The Bollard is held in place with 4 8 inch by 1/4 inch machine bolts. The spit itself is also attached with 4 10 inch by 5/8 inch machine bolts. In the old system, the 4 bolts from the windlass provided additional sprit holding power, and I am concerned that the sprit mighty actually be "underattached" so any consideration to this additional concern is also appreciated.

I have not reinstalled the anchor roller on the sprit. I have withheld doing so because I am uncertain where along the sprit to set the twin rollers. My sense was that the original rollers were to far away from the bow and likely put additional anchoring stress on the sprit with that additional leverage of 4 feet. And I have not mounted the old Nilson windlass. There is simply no way to install it on the sprit without making the same off-axis alignment so to make the sure the chain hole goes through the sprit. Set the windlass more off to the side so the chain drops straight through the deck, and you cannot mount two bolts from the base of the windlass.

To make matters worse, I have just about shot my budget. I am limping. The rewire, sprit, furler, bow glassing have about all tapped me. At the risk of an engineer’s ire, I really need a budget anchor system for now -- one that is just good enough to be me around the local coast here in Southern California with a trip or two to Catalina Island. I will redo the system once the funds come back up, but I cannot spring for a new windlass at this point.

These are my thoughts and questions.

1. I am thinking of using part of the old sprit and making a mounting base for the windlass and mount the windlass a few inches behind the sprit, using the bollard as a point to attach the snubber. However, the chain hole from this location would drop pretty smack dab into the v berth sleeping area. I suppose I could just keep the chain on the deck, but that feels sloppy and dangerous. The other issue is that this move would effective cut the foredeck in half. I would always have to step over something to get to the other side. No big deal, but a thought.
2. I am thinking of simply tying the chain around the bollard, and dropping off the anchor roller and hauling everything up by hand. I would hand feed the chain into the locker below.
3. I could look for a manual windlass and mount that on the sprit and then feed the chain into hole on the side into the locker. But…. Manuals seem to be as expensive electrics.
4. Where should the anchor roller be located? As close to the bow as possible?

I am looking for two solutions: First, something so that I can go sailing now, and secondly, a windlass arrangement that I can use on my trans-ocean crossing.

I have walked up and down the marina and looked at many boats and their anchoring system, and so far, nothing I have seen clicks in my mind.

Thanks

Michael
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Old 25-08-2008, 13:58   #2
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Originally Posted by MV
4. Where should the anchor roller be located? As close to the bow as possible?
Yes, the rollers should only be far enough outboard so the anchor(s) clear the bow.
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Old 25-08-2008, 16:56   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Yes, the rollers should only be far enough outboard so the anchor(s) clear the bow.

Ok, that is a good start. I can make that a design starting point.

Anymore suggestions Gord?

Appreciate you taking the time to respond.


M
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Old 25-08-2008, 17:12   #4
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Michael...I would note that many cutters with long sprits do NOT use snubbers on deck with their rode. Instead, they make one up and fit it to the base of the bobstay to reduce the angle and to avoid chafe on the bob stay from conventional snubbers as the boat rotates/sails at anchor. Just a thought you may wish to consider.
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Old 25-08-2008, 18:04   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camaraderie View Post
Michael...I would note that many cutters with long sprits do NOT use snubbers on deck with their rode. Instead, they make one up and fit it to the base of the bobstay to reduce the angle and to avoid chafe on the bob stay from conventional snubbers as the boat rotates/sails at anchor. Just a thought you may wish to consider.

I dont suppose you have a photograph you could post? I cannot see what you are writing in my mind.

Michael
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Old 26-08-2008, 03:07   #6
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The anchor rollers are only intended for deploying & retrieving the anchor, and should not be used for fairleads or chocks, on a deployed rode.
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Old 26-08-2008, 05:11   #7
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The anchor rollers are only intended for deploying & retrieving the anchor, and should not be used for fairleads or chocks, on a deployed rode.
Huh....?

You lost me there Gord:

I have alsways used the rollers for fairleads as I lead the chain onboard and to the cleat.

Starboard (chain side) roller is Nylon, of the kind small-boat trailers use to support and launch/retrieve.
The Port roller, for the 3 strand "nylon side," sports a highly polished SS roller. (to avoid chafe.)

Aft of the anchor platform I have 2 big cleats, a 10" for nylon and a 12" for chain.
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Old 26-08-2008, 06:10   #8
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...I have alsways used the rollers for fairleads as I lead the chain onboard and to the cleat...
I overstated.
My objection to deploying a rode over a bow sprit platform relates to the increased lever forces, upon a poorly supported cantilever.
Your CSY has a clipper bow & roller, but no bow sprit, so the chain could be led over the roller.
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Old 26-08-2008, 07:57   #9
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Anchor rollers—e.g. Windline, Kingston et al—are designed to ease the launching and retrieving of an anchor, only, and are generally not intended to take the loads that might be generated by an anchor rode in all but settled weather. While the rollers are—today—generally manufactured using UHMW plastics or HDPE, the pins are generally only 1/4” to 5/8” in diameter which limits their shear capacity. I have seen more than one yacht where the pin in the anchor roller failed after which the chain sawed its way into the prow of the yacht. Anchor loads, particularly chain, should be carried by snubbers lead through fairleads to sturdy deck cleats.

In Michael’s case, he must necessarily have his anchor rollers on either side of the bow-sprit. Given the bob-stay, however, it would be unwise not to use snubbers to lead the chain loads to the chalks on either side of the bow platform.

During the temporary lack of a windlass, one can use the halyard winches on the mast to retrieve the anchor by making up a length of line with a chain hook and passing the chain through a chain stopper near the bow roller. One attaches the chain hook to the chain just aft of the stopper, passes the line around the halyard winch and cranks away. Releasing the load on the line—slowly—causes the stopper to engage after which one can relocate the chain hook and repeat. This is somewhat of a PITA, and it does leave a lot of chain laying about on deck to be stowed later, but it does work—did for me for years—and it saves the cost of a windlass for awhile. Moreover, in all but exceptional cases, one is—or should be—only lifting the weight of the chain and anchor—not hauling the yacht up to the gear.

Later he can install a proper windlass and in his case I would recommend something like a Maxwell VW 1000 or 1500 (see Vertical Windlass Range ) mounted on the centerline of the bowsprit. This can retrieve chain from either direction and with oval chain pipes on either side of the bowsprit will allow the chain to fall neatly into the chain-locker which I know Michael will have divided from side to side. We now have a similar arrangement on our boat and with a wireless handheld controller for the windlass—the whole business is quite convenient.

FWIW…

s/v HyLyte
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Old 26-08-2008, 11:43   #10
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MV...here's a link to a project which includes the bobstay fitting for a snubber attachement point.
February 8 2004
and here's a poor photo of a complete system:
http://www.illywhacker.com/images/il.../1004_bow2.jpg
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Old 26-08-2008, 20:01   #11
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Ok, I am beginning to see the physics in my mind. NOW I know what that huge D shackle is at the base of the bobstay on my boat. LOL! I almost took it off when I was redoing the sprit. I thought it was useless. See? There is NO manual around when you need it, and were there one for the Willard I doubt that that D shackle would have been mentioned. Thank-you very much.

And I would have never, ever imagined such a creature as a chain stopper. Now that I have looked it up and imagined the halyard winch on the mast, I can see a possible IMMEDIATE solution.

I am tickled -- and not by the squirrel!

Thanks

Michael
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Old 26-08-2008, 21:12   #12
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Your CSY has a clipper bow & roller, but no bow sprit, so the chain could be led over the roller.

Yup...Big arse anchor, big arse platform, big arse rollers, etc.

Sleep good at night.

Newsflash to newbies:
Buy/steal biggest anchor ya can find: More boats are lost to bad anchors inshore than bad storms off-shore.
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Old 02-09-2008, 16:37   #13
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Later he can install a proper windlass and in his case I would recommend something like a Maxwell VW 1000 or 1500 (see Vertical Windlass Range ) mounted on the centerline of the bowsprit. ... s/v HyLyte
I thought you were a Lighthouse fan -- did you change your mind?


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Old 02-09-2008, 17:03   #14
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Michael--

The smallest Lighthouse would be the 1501 which would be overkill for your boat and even with the underdeck motor drive option, might be too large for the Sprit. The Maxwell 1200 vertical drive will fit the raised platform of the sprit easily and can service two anchor rollers quite easily with chain pipes on either side of the sprit. My set up is detailed at http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...es-3456-2.html starting with post #22.

Good Luck!

s/v HyLyte
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