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Old 04-05-2017, 01:43   #61
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Re: Mantus Anchor Swivel Break

And now you have to worry about mousing wires on swivels?

Forget swivels, the Flip Link is stronger (Bisalloy steel) , safer, more durable, more reliable and much cheaper.

Check it out here:

Anchor Right Australia introduces, the innovative Flip Link | Anchor Right News and Updates
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Old 04-05-2017, 01:57   #62
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Re: Mantus Anchor Swivel Break

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
And now you have to worry about mousing wires on swivels?

Forget swivels, the Flip Link is stronger (Bisalloy steel) , safer, more durable, more reliable and much cheaper.

Check it out here:

Anchor Right Australia introduces, the innovative Flip Link | Anchor Right News and Updates
There's no way I'd trust my boat to the use of that contraption. That little dinky pin can't possibly be as strong as a chain link. Plus.. how long or rather how short a time period before the two metal bits rub or corrode the little pin to bits? And please explain to us how it functions as a swivel?

I read about Bisalloy Steel, the promo website doesn't mention anything about marine use. It appears to be a strong product for structural and defense use, but no mention of submersion into salt water.

Why not elininate little pins and wire all together by purchasing a well-built anchor swivel?
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Old 04-05-2017, 02:25   #63
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Re: Mantus Anchor Swivel Break

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
And now you have to worry about mousing wires on swivels?

Forget swivels, the Flip Link is stronger (Bisalloy steel) , safer, more durable, more reliable and much cheaper.

Check it out here:

Anchor Right Australia introduces, the innovative Flip Link | Anchor Right News and Updates


I think this device looks quite good and has good quality shackles.

Now I'm going to tell you why you should always use a swivel of high quality like the Wasi, Kong, Mantus or as Kenomac added, the Ultra swivel using the pictures above as an example.

You should always use a high quality swivel as it is stronger than the chain and forces you to mount it correctly.
Shackles in the local chandlery are usually not of the right spec so you end up buying under spec shackles for your anchor.

And if you don't believe me on these points, look at the picture above of the good quality shackle mounted onto the anchor, it is mounted wrong so it can handle no side load, it has no side pull strength and is very dangerous, yet the sailor assumes he has done a great job. He endangers his boat if he ever has the misfortune to be anchored in a storm. An absolutely major mistake to have made.

Also, the yellow shackle in Kenomacs picture above will not ride over the bow roller smoothly.

Do yourselves all a favour and get a good quality swivel, the example above should convince you of that. Side loading shackles as mounted above is very dangerous.
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Old 04-05-2017, 05:06   #64
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Crosby G-209A Shackles

You can buy the Crosby G-209A Shackles in lots of places.

The WLL Working Load is forged into every shackle, so even years later you can look at it and know its rating.

Anchor Shackle

Crosby G-209A Series Forged Alloy Anchor Shackle
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Old 04-05-2017, 05:23   #65
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Re: Mantus Anchor Swivel Break

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Forget swivels, the Flip Link is stronger (Bisalloy steel) , safer, more durable, more reliable and much cheaper.
The flip link is quite different to a swivel.

It will rotate the anchor upright as it comes over the bow roller, but it does not provide the primary function of a swivel, namely to reduce twist in the chain.

One concern I have with the flip swivel is the possibility that the bulky fitting could reduce the anchor's performance by limiting the amount the shank can bury. It would be good to see it performing underwater to get some idea if this is a significant limitation.
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Old 04-05-2017, 05:37   #66
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Righting Swivel

If you need a Swivel and also need the anchor to come up the right way you can buy a Righting Swivel.


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Old 04-05-2017, 06:32   #67
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Re: Mantus Anchor Swivel Break

I recently went on a short sail and anchored overnight with my Spade A100, 75 Ft. 5/8 chain, and 150 Rode. I have been looking at and planning to change the rode as it is showing signs of fraying. Everything I have is several years old. At 4 Am I was awoken with a 180 degree wind shift, rough seas state and a jammed winch. I bent the spade anchor arm considerably, breaking the lower weld. The west marine ss shackle, rusted chain, and fraying rode to chain connection all did fine....My weak spot is my retrieval, looking for a way to get that jamb cleared from the winch as it feeds below.
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Old 04-05-2017, 07:57   #68
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Re: Mantus Anchor Swivel Break

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
The flip link is quite different to a swivel.

It will rotate the anchor upright as it comes over the bow roller, but it does not provide the primary function of a swivel, namely to reduce twist in the chain.

One concern I have with the flip swivel is the possibility that the bulky fitting could reduce the anchor's performance by limiting the amount the shank can bury. It would be good to see it performing underwater to get some idea if this is a significant limitation.

First, I'm not sure what Kenomac's point was in showing a part that had been pulled to failure during testing. Of course it is broken. Anything would be. As for high strength steel not being "rated for underwater use,", that's the same old stuff we've been hearing about high grade chain for years; experience doesn't bear out the fear.

Second, I'm not sure that ANY swivel actually does swivel when under ground, well, buried. I have seen some testing, and the friction is simply too high. They only swivel when the anchor meets the roller. Unless someone has data.

Finally, the flip link actually increases burying, because viewed in the direction the chain is actually moving, it is slimmer than the chain. Looking at it from the side gives a false impression. Yes, I have tested this assertion.

I don't use a flip link personally. My anchor comes up straight without anything other than good technique and The space from anchor to chain lock is too limited. But I have tested it and it seems to work very nicely.
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Old 04-05-2017, 08:33   #69
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Re: Mantus Anchor Swivel Break

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Second, I'm not sure that ANY swivel actually does swivel when under ground, well, buried. I have seen some testing, and the friction is simply too high. They only swivel when the anchor meets the roller. Unless someone has data.
The swivel only has to rotate just before the anchor is broken out. This is when the twists concentrate and become a problem.

The torque can get very high. On occasions, without a swivel, I have even been concerned that the links of chain could be permanently deformed. It is hard to imagine a swivel even with a simple bearing, not rotating in such circumstances. These situations are rare. There is lot to recommend the simplicity of a single high test shackle, but if you are going to something more complex it should be able to eliminate this twist. The flip link cannot do this.
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Old 04-05-2017, 11:37   #70
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Re: Mantus Anchor Swivel Break

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
First, I'm not sure what Kenomac's point was in showing a part that had been pulled to failure during testing. Of course it is broken. Anything would be. As for high strength steel not being "rated for underwater use,", that's the same old stuff we've been hearing about high grade chain for years; experience doesn't bear out the fear.

Second, I'm not sure that ANY swivel actually does swivel when under ground, well, buried. I have seen some testing, and the friction is simply too high. They only swivel when the anchor meets the roller. Unless someone has data.

Finally, the flip link actually increases burying, because viewed in the direction the chain is actually moving, it is slimmer than the chain. Looking at it from the side gives a false impression. Yes, I have tested this assertion.

I don't use a flip link personally. My anchor comes up straight without anything other than good technique and The space from anchor to chain lock is too limited. But I have tested it and it seems to work very nicely.
That broken or rather "pulled to failure" part as you call it, is the actual "Flip Link" as shown in the company's promo website. Or.... is the flip link just that hunk of steel? I understood it was the yellow shackle. What a lousy add.
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Old 04-05-2017, 16:11   #71
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Re: Mantus Anchor Swivel Break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
That broken or rather "pulled to failure" part as you call it, is the actual "Flip Link" as shown in the company's promo website. Or.... is the flip link just that hunk of steel? I understood it was the yellow shackle. What a lousy add.
Wow, simply wow.

You obviously went to the page I linked, because you copied the photo from there. If you had bothered to read what was on the page while you were there, you would have learned that the "yellow shackle" in the photo is NOT a shackle, it is a hammer lock which is a very strong device used when certified break testing is carried out. You need to use something stronger than what you are testing to actually break it!

Unlike some other manufacturers of anchoring equipment, Anchor Right Australia have every piece of gear they develop tested to destruction by a certified tester (Robertsons). There is even a link immediately above the photo you copied that explains Anchor Right destruction testing and certification.

The FLIP Link shown was sized for 8mm chain with breaking at about 3000kgf (or 4T kgf for G40), the FLIP broke at about 10,000kgf, and the hammer lock used for testing has a breaking rating of about 12,000kgf. Is that strong enough for you?

Regarding chain twisting, a question please. What causes the twist in a chain rode that is laid out? How many twists in say 40 meters laid out would cause a problem? Is it caused by sailing over and/or around the anchor with wind shifts, tide changes etc. or is it caused by chain being retrieved and let out by the windlass? I've read the other threads on this, but did not see what the cause is.
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Old 04-05-2017, 20:26   #72
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Re: Mantus Anchor Swivel Break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
There's no way I'd trust my boat to the use of that contraption. That little dinky pin can't possibly be as strong as a chain link. Plus.. how long or rather how short a time period before the two metal bits rub or corrode the little pin to bits? And please explain to us how it functions as a swivel?

I read about Bisalloy Steel, the promo website doesn't mention anything about marine use. It appears to be a strong product for structural and defense use, but no mention of submersion into salt water.

Why not elininate little pins and wire all together by purchasing a well-built anchor swivel?
If i'm not mistaken, the shanks of Manson supreme anchors are made of BIS steel,and t he original Rocnas were too. In fact, I think the original specs for the Rocna said the shank HAD to be made of it... thus starting the slanging wars that filled so many pages on CF at the hands of Craig Smith and the Chinese manufacturers.

So far, submerging the shank of our Manson has not caused dissolution or other damage to the shank, so i think your worries are unwarranted, Ken.

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Old 04-05-2017, 20:56   #73
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Re: Mantus Anchor Swivel Break

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
There's no way I'd trust my boat to the use of that contraption. That little dinky pin can't possibly be as strong as a chain link. Plus.. how long or rather how short a time period before the two metal bits rub or corrode the little pin to bits? And please explain to us how it functions as a swivel?

I read about Bisalloy Steel, the promo website doesn't mention anything about marine use. It appears to be a strong product for structural and defense use, but no mention of submersion into salt water.

Why not elininate little pins and wire all together by purchasing a well-built anchor swivel?
Ken, I do believe that the hammerlock was installed for the testing, the recommended install is as shown using load rated shackles.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuss View Post

I think this device looks quite good and has good quality shackles.

Now I'm going to tell you why you should always use a swivel of high quality like the Wasi, Kong, Mantus or as Kenomac added, the Ultra swivel using the pictures above as an example.

You should always use a high quality swivel as it is stronger than the chain and forces you to mount it correctly.
Shackles in the local chandlery are usually not of the right spec so you end up buying under spec shackles for your anchor.

And if you don't believe me on these points, look at the picture above of the good quality shackle mounted onto the anchor, it is mounted wrong so it can handle no side load, it has no side pull strength and is very dangerous, yet the sailor assumes he has done a great job. He endangers his boat if he ever has the misfortune to be anchored in a storm. An absolutely major mistake to have made.

Also, the yellow shackle in Kenomacs picture above will not ride over the bow roller smoothly.

Do yourselves all a favour and get a good quality swivel, the example above should convince you of that. Side loading shackles as mounted above is very dangerous.
Perhaps you didn't notice that the oversize D shackle fitted to the anchor shank is there to allow the correct size bow shackle to attach correctly, allowing the required load rating without excessive sideloading.
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Old 04-05-2017, 21:28   #74
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Re: Mantus Anchor Swivel Break

Thanks Bigb and JimC for your correct clarifications.
Flip Links are a simple solution to an inverted anchor. Tf you have the room it just works. They meet the performance requirements of US federal specification RR-C-271F, we have those specs on our site.
Fuss, understand your concern with the shackle pin thru the shank, it is an option. I'm not exactly sure of the large shackle dimension but I will guess it is up to task. Crosby shackle specs in that orientation inline pull and offline are 0-5 deg = 100% WLL / 45 deg = 70% / 90 deg = 50% WLL. You can also use those numbers against a swivel.
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Old 04-05-2017, 22:18   #75
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Re: Mantus Anchor Swivel Break

Would also concur with Thins last post. Now Uncle Bob beats me with his post.. I'm slow.
I have shackled the Flip Link directly to the shank with no chain links, it rotates faster. Still slower than an inverted anchor halfway into your bow roller without it. Adding links will slow it down.
We have been upping that short chain diameter. You can loose one shackle if an odd number of links are used.
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