Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 26-03-2017, 04:29   #46
Registered User
 
anacapaisland42's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Boat: Challenger 32 1974
Posts: 399
Images: 3
Re: Kedge Anchor with no chain and Spectra Dyneema rode.

My anchoring "God" is Bob Griffiths.....slightly dated but update his philosophy by some of the new anchor technology and you should be safe.
Bill



He replied that since he only stayed in marinas, he did not carry an anchor!?! It seems that for a lot of people, the word "seamanship" is just something you see in an old C. S. Forester novel.[/QUOTE]
__________________

anacapaisland42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-03-2017, 10:03   #47
Registered User
 
buzzstar's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: ashore in So Calif.
Boat: No more boat (my medical, not the boat's)
Posts: 1,450
Re: Kedge Anchor with no chain and Spectra Dyneema rode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anacapaisland42 View Post
My anchoring "God" is Bob Griffiths.....slightly dated but update his philosophy by some of the new anchor technology and you should be safe.
Bill

He replied that since he only stayed in marinas, he did not carry an anchor!?! It seems that for a lot of people, the word "seamanship" is just something you see in an old C. S. Forester novel.
[/QUOTE]

Well, for one thing, he is perhaps the only potential user of this forum that would be safe from being told he was using the incorrect anchor. But on the hand, everyone on this forum might say he was wrong, thus creating that rarity of rarities, called general agreement.
__________________

__________________
"Old California"
buzzstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-03-2017, 11:07   #48
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sailing the Caribbean
Boat: Switch 51
Posts: 1,515
Re: Kedge Anchor with no chain and Spectra Dyneema rode.

Why is everyone discussing this as if the issue is a primary anchor and rode? He asked about a kedge, and the analysis might also apply to a stern anchor - one that is used infrequently. In my view, it is totally different than a primary bower. I would not hesitate to use dyneema as a rode for an anchor that is so seldom used, perhaps with a detachable dyneema leader to change when it starts to wear. You can oversize the heck out of it, since it is light and getting cheaper. I doubt it is going to wear through without warning and if it does, your stern swings or your kedging off fails. Big deal. You don't lose the boat.
SVNeko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-03-2017, 13:16   #49
Moderator
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 14,053
Re: Kedge Anchor with no chain and Spectra Dyneema rode.

Quote:
Why is everyone discussing this as if the issue is a primary anchor and rode?
Likely because very few of the respondents have ever had to struggle with a heavy anchor and chain in the dinghy, carrying out a kedge in rough conditions. for those of us who have, the idea of an aluminium kedge with an all textile rode sounds damn good!

IMO your points are well taken.

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Port Cygnet recovering from the excesses of the Cygnet Regatta
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-03-2017, 13:35   #50
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 5,879
Re: Kedge Anchor with no chain and Spectra Dyneema rode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Likely because very few of the respondents have ever had to struggle with a heavy anchor and chain in the dinghy, carrying out a kedge in rough conditions...

Jim
Or struggled to keep their balance, or tried to keep the chain off the gelcoat, or dropped an anchor on a hatch as a result of trying to handle too many things at once.

I do have chain on the main, but this is totally different. The difference in useability, when I ditched the chain, was a revelation. I still have the chain (need it anyway for shore ties and drogues) and would use it if there were enough rocks or if the kedge became primary.
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-03-2017, 15:12   #51
Moderator
 
Don C L's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 6,639
Images: 42
Re: Kedge Anchor with no chain and Spectra Dyneema rode.

Hmmm... a local thing... but where I am I grew up with the bow and stern hooks always in use and the smarter boats (IMO) had the same size, full size, ready to go, with rodes attached, on both bow and stern. So it is interesting and still an education to me, if I am understanding some of these correctly, to see how many folks think in terms of bow anchor... and then the others. Kedge, for me, would never refer to a stern anchor... but that is just me! In many cases around these parts, if I lose my stern hook, I am in real danger of swinging into cliffs or rocks or other boats. On occasion I have seen visitors coming through on their way south to Mexico pull into an anchorage at the Channel Islands, see everyone with bow and stern hooks down and utter a foul word. They then usually decide to anchor out away from the crowd, but in more exposure to the swell, or take their chances trying to find a spot and use their dinghy to set a stern hook, which can be a challenge for anyone. And then retrieving it can be just as challenging. There are ways to do it without the dinghy and without risking the whole shooting match, but it is good to be ready for it with extra long rodes and anchors ready. And in those anchorages where a breeze will not be pushing me from where I dropped the bow to where I want to drop the stern hook, I drop the stern hook first and motor up to where I want the bow. If I try to back up from the bow hook, with my long keel... well, let's just say it makes for a great comedy show for all the other folks in the anchorage to watch... while they jump up from their beer and chips to fend me off!
__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
Don C L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-03-2017, 23:30   #52
Moderator
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 14,053
Re: Kedge Anchor with no chain and Spectra Dyneema rode.

Don, as a former visitor to the Channel Islands, I understand where you are coming from. But really, that is a real outlier in practice. In all the tens of thousands of miles we've covered since those days, we've not found one single anchorage that follows that practice (routine bow and stern anchors).

In the general cruising world, using that spare anchor as a kedge is far more common than as a stern anchor. I'll admit to occasionally setting what might be called a stern anchor, since it is set from the stern! However, it is mostly used to slew the boat around to face a refracted swell and reduce rolling, and it is not expected to hold the full load of the boat as a "real" stern anchor is, as practiced in the many coves on Santa Cruz island. Having a stern anchor equivalent to the bower would make it essentially impossible to deploy as a kedge, as most of us use all chain rodes, and dragging a couple of shots of 10 mm chain around in the dinghy is, well, daunting doesn't do that task justice!

But I agree that visitors to SCI should be aware of the practice and be ready to follow suit. After our first visit we were!

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Port Cygnet recovering from the excesses of the Cygnet Regatta
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27-03-2017, 00:06   #53
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,919
Re: Kedge Anchor with no chain and Spectra Dyneema rode.

Any issues with something like a fortress kiting up in current, or only very slowly sinking due to no chain weight near the anchor?

Fortress specify more chain for deeper depths and I am guessing this is to help it reach the bottom quickly and somewhere near the place you drop it?
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-03-2017, 08:20   #54
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 105
Re: Kedge Anchor with no chain and Spectra Dyneema rode.

Jim cate, the coasties did not use aluminum anchors in my day, but I did see them (us) do a lot of things that I would not call prudent seamanship. But that is another subject. By "real anchor" I mean an anchor with some weight and the ability to dig in and hold. It could be a fisherman style, a plow, a Bruce, a steel danforth, or any of the so-called "new generation" anchors. But not a lightweight aluminum anchor. I was in the Caribbean when the fortress first came out and I made a point of rushing over in my dinghy when I saw someone getting ready to set one. I would jump into the water with my mask and snorkel and observe how well the light weight anchor dug in. Not very well as it turned out. I agree that once buried an aluminum anchor will hold as well as steel. But getting it to bury is the problem. And as for the rode of a kedge not needing to be as robust as the rode for a main, or bow anchor. I think the kedge, bring the anchor that will be used in an emergency grounding to hail the stricken yacht free, needs to be every bit as strong as any other anchor system on the boat. But that is just the opinion of an old man, sailing a nineteenth century boat on a twenty-first century ocean.
ingrid75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-03-2017, 10:53   #55
Sponsoring Vendor

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 413
Re: Kedge Anchor with no chain and Spectra Dyneema rode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
Any issues with something like a fortress kiting up in current, or only very slowly sinking due to no chain weight near the anchor?

Fortress specify more chain for deeper depths and I am guessing this is to help it reach the bottom quickly and somewhere near the place you drop it?
Reaching the sea bottom in deep water and fast setting can definitely be an issue with smaller Fortress models that are 10 lb (4.5 kg) and less, particularly in a heavy current. Following our chain guidelines can definitely help with this issue and it will also insure additional chafe protection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ingrid75 View Post
I was in the Caribbean when the fortress first came out and I made a point of rushing over in my dinghy when I saw someone getting ready to set one. I would jump into the water with my mask and snorkel and observe how well the light weight anchor dug in. Not very well as it turned out. I agree that once buried an aluminum anchor will hold as well as steel. But getting it to bury is the problem.
I think that more care is needed with setting the lighter models, once again, particularly in a brick hard bottom.

The Fortress is used aboard the USCG's 28', 33', new 45', 47', 87', 110' and new 154' vessels (two images below).

posted image

gifs upload


Our largest anchor, the 69 lb (31 kg) FX-125 is mounted on the bow in the above images.

Suffice to say that I don't think there is another anchor in the world of that size and weight which would have been able to meet the performance specification required to be approved for use aboard a vessel of that length and displacement (353 long tons / 790,000 lbs).
Fortress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-03-2017, 14:57   #56
Moderator
 
Don C L's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 6,639
Images: 42
Re: Kedge Anchor with no chain and Spectra Dyneema rode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
But really, that is a real outlier in practice. In all the tens of thousands of miles we've covered since those days, we've not found one single anchorage that follows that practice
Jim
Truth be told, Jim, I'm an outlier among outliers as it is, and really there are only a handful of anchorages that warrant this extreme level (big anchor bow and stern) of outlandish behavior. What luxury it will be if I ever make it south to pull into an anchorage and drop only one hook.... ah one can only dream....
Don C L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-03-2017, 15:31   #57
Moderator
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 14,053
Re: Kedge Anchor with no chain and Spectra Dyneema rode.

Quote:
Jim cate, the coasties did not use aluminum anchors in my day, but I did see them (us) do a lot of things that I would not call prudent seamanship
Well, we don't know when "your days" in the Coasties were, but perusal of the post by Fortress just above will demonstrate that the Coast Guard do indeed use Fortress "aluminium tinkertoy" anchors as bowers on many of their vessels, just as i said.

To be fair, the CG usage is different than that of most cruisng yachts, for they have large crews, always stand anchor watch, and never are faced with leaving their boats unattended as we often must. This alters the risk profile considerably!

But, please note that the anchors under discussion in this thread are kedge anchors, not bowers, and that in this usage, ease of deploying is very important. While some cruisers doubtless use Fortress anchors as bowers, most of us use large steel anchors of some design or other, and at the end of a long bit of chain, and for good reasons.

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Port Cygnet recovering from the excesses of the Cygnet Regatta
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27-03-2017, 20:21   #58
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 105
Re: Kedge Anchor with no chain and Spectra Dyneema rode.

I have seen fortress anchors on USCG vessels. Your points about the differences in the anchoring situations of a USCG cutter and a cruising yacht are well taken. I would also suspect that the use of fortress anchors by the coasties has at least something to do with good salesmanship, effective lobbying, and low bids.
ingrid75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-03-2017, 21:17   #59
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: WY / Currently in Hayes VA on the Chesapeake
Boat: Ocean Alexander, Ocean 44
Posts: 1,020
Re: Kedge Anchor with no chain and Spectra Dyneema rode.

"But, please note that the anchors under discussion in this thread are kedge anchors, not bowers, and that in this usage, ease of deploying is very important. While some cruisers doubtless use Fortress anchors as bowers, most of us use large steel anchors of some design or other, and at the end of a long bit of chain, and for good reasons.

Jim"

+1 Jim. I've not had to row one out in big waves but I did in a tiny soft floored inflatable with some wind and rain in the dark. I will go for a Fortress with no chain and no stretch when I next change my kedge rig.
darylat8750 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-03-2017, 06:06   #60
Sponsoring Vendor

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 413
Re: Kedge Anchor with no chain and Spectra Dyneema rode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ingrid75 View Post
I would also suspect that the use of fortress anchors by the coasties has at least something to do with good salesmanship, effective lobbying, and low bids.
None of the above, as our personnel are not that good, nor politically knowledgeable & well-connected, nor our product that cheap.

The use of Fortress aboard various USCG boats is the direct result of an impressive showing during US Navy pull tests in April 1989 for their Landing Craft Air Cushion (LCAC) program.

Three Fortress models (weighing 31, 44, and 65 lbs) were tested along with three Navy anchors (100, 120, and 200 lbs) and three Danforth anchors (44, 62, and 90 lbs).

All of the hi-tensile steel Danforth anchors were destroyed during this testing, while the Fortress anchors sustained only minimal damage, which led to this comment in their summary report:

"The fact that the Fortress anchors incurred no significant structural damage at such high holding ratios [holding capacity divided by anchor weight, Fortress held >200x] suggests that the anchors have been extensively engineered from both the hydrodynamic and structural standpoints."


An image of the LCAC is below, with our largest model, the FX-125 on the lower right of the bow.

host images
__________________

Fortress is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anchor, dyneema, rode

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Headsail tack/foil extension - width and strength of Spectra or Dyneema line OldFrog75 Construction, Maintenance & Refit 25 22-07-2016 05:06
Kedge Anchor Thoughts and Questions Dockhead Anchoring & Mooring 37 24-02-2011 18:00
Kedge Anchor Size FraidNot Anchoring & Mooring 2 24-06-2010 05:25
Series Drogue Rode . . . Dyneema ? cvondo Anchoring & Mooring 7 11-06-2010 10:18
crazy idea for those with deep pockets, spectra (dyneema) anchor line schoonerdog Multihull Sailboats 22 27-10-2008 01:46



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:53.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.