Irony splice--can you clarify Toss' instructions?

[JiminVA]

Many thanks to those who took the time to help me solve my splice-windlass problem and suggested I consider the irony splice. I bought Toss' book and the instructions are mostly clear except the last steps.

Here's where I have a question. When there is only about 6 inches left of the laid-in line you are supposed to knot the laid-in line with the laid-out line and then tuck one line 6 times towards the chain and the other line gets tucked away from the chain. (P. 94).

Which line (laid-in or laid-out) gets tucked towards the chain? Or does it not matter?

Also, if you go with the "less bulky" option, do the parts of the laid-in and laid-out lines just hang out at that point?

This all only has a prayer of making sense if you have his book, but I'd welcome advice from those who have made this splice.

Thanks in advance!

[UNCIVILIZED]

Duct Tape

[UNCIVILIZED]

Seriously though, I'll try & find my copy later. As it's been a while since I did the splice, so it's not fresh in my memory.

[estarzinger]

>>Which line (laid-in or laid-out) gets tucked towards the chain?

The principle is use whichever leads straightest. The way I make the knot, that means the layed-out piece goes toward the chain. And I believe that is preferred because it spreads the load most evenly. . . . but the key principles are straightest lead and lots of friction (tucks) and taper

>>Also, if you go with the "less bulky" option, do the parts of the laid-in and laid-out lines just hang out at that point?

generally you do a partial tuck and clip them flush (ish). You dont want bit's of any length 'hanging out' as they might get caught in things. You can also sew or whip them flush (ish)

btw . . . there is an even better splice for this application, called the transmission splice . . . but I have never seen it used in "yachting". Per its name it is used in rope drive transmissions. It splices the laid out and laid in strands together . . . . but the irony is fine

[JiminVA]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

>>

>>Also, if you go with the "less bulky" option, do the parts of the laid-in and laid-out lines just hang out at that point?

generally you do a partial tuck and clip them flush (ish). You dont want bit's of any length 'hanging out' as they might get caught in things. You can also sew or whip them flush (ish)

)

Thank you. That answer reminds me I have another couple of questions. What's a "partial"tuck? Also, in the ABOK discussion of the "irony splice" the reader is directed to the long splice (2629) for additional instructions. There it says "...tuck each end over and under twice full and then a half." Does that mean to cut half the strands after the full tucks and tuck the remainder thereby thinning the line and getting a smoother taper? That's what the illustration looks like. Or something else?

[Frankly]

Yes tapering the last few tucks means cutting a % of the strands at each tuck. Say 1/3 by 3 tucks. Makes most any splice transition a little smoother. Haven't got Brion's book in front of me, but as I remember there is a single overhand as the last two strands come together up the splice and you start the final tucks.

[JiminVA]

Originally Posted by Frankly

Haven't got Brion's book in front of me, but as I remember there is a single overhand as the last two strands come together up the splice and you start the final tucks.

Yes, he describes the single overhand knot. He gives two options (1) knot the two full strands (bulkier) or (2) separate each strand in half and knot one of the two pairs of half strands (less bulky). I can't quite visualize what happens to the other pair of half strands but advice from above is to do a tuck with them.

[thinwater]

The simpleand best answer is to leave them un-cut. This will create a slight bulge (4 strands instead of 3) but it ONLY matters in a long splice that will pass through blocks. For this application, it is safer and potentially stronger to leave them. It will NOT affect the feeding through the windlass.

Do allow the strands to unlay when tucking, which will make the splice smother and more flexible. This is NOT a splice where maintaining the strands in a nice neat twist is better--it is worse. Let them flatten out, since the goal is smoothness and minimal bulk.

I personally do not like adding gel to the rope. Perhaps it is the line I have used, but to my feel it actually makes things more difficult. Additionally, it badly interferes with treating the splice with RP-25 or other anti-chafe treatments, should you choose to.

[Frankly]

Got the book out. At the overhand knot (we are up the rope not at the end) split both lay in and lay out in half and then tuck the remaining halves up and down the line 4 or 5 tucks. I think I then tapered the tucked ends to make a slightly smoother transition and then added 2 or 3 more tucks. Then go back and trim off the half strands that are left over at the overhand knot. Don't remember of I heat sealed these or just left them cut. Alternate mentioned by Brion is to use the full lay in/ lay out for the tucks.

Thinwater is correct in not using any gel or other stiffners. Just have not found it necessary. Probably done half a dozen of these over the years but my first try was a practice that hit the trash vs the water.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by JiminVA

What's a "partial"tuck?

Just an 'under' tuck (rather than over and under)-
intent is just to hide the filaments in the rope so they dont catch/snag somewhere. I have seen some commercial riggers add a little adhesive to keep the filaments suck in there.

There it says "...tuck each end over and under twice full and then a half." Does that mean to cut half the strands after the full tucks and tuck the remainder thereby thinning the line and getting a smoother taper?
Yes, exactly . . . except (as echoed in the comments above) most folks are now doing a three stage taper - 1/3 cut off and full tuck and then another 1/3 cut off and full tuck. This just makes it a little smoother, does not effect strength.

Originally Posted by thinwater

Do allow the strands to unlay when tucking, which will make the splice smother and more flexible. This is NOT a splice where maintaining the strands in a nice neat twist is better--it is worse. Let them flatten out, since the goal is smoothness and minimal bulk.

Just to clarify this - you do not want the 'laid in' strand to untwist. You want that to be twisted just like the other strands in the rope. . . .. . . But I agree that specifically when you get to tucking that strand and the laid-out strand after the knot, it is best to flatten it out.

I personally do not like adding gel to the rope. Perhaps it is the line I have used, but to my feel it actually makes things more difficult. Additionally, it badly interferes with treating the splice with RP-25 or other anti-chafe treatments, should you choose to.

If you dont need gel to keep the laid-in strand correctly twisted then I agree no reason to use it. But if you are having trouble keeping the twist (as I often do with new NER 3 strand), the gel trick is useful.

The important part is that to maintain even filament tension (which is the key point for strength), you should really maintain 'original' twist in the laid-in strand. Do whatever is necessary to accomplish that.

I have never tried to use RP-25 right over gel - have you and it failed - what happened? (Im a bit surprised if thats the case because it goes over a variety of coatings that various manufacturers put on their new rope).

The Gel will wash out over time/in use . . . .and you can wash it out immediately after the splice is completed if you want to use the RP-25 immediately. The twist will stay in once the splice is all locked down

...........

[JiminVA]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I personally do not like adding gel to the rope. Perhaps it is the line I have used, but to my feel it actually makes things more difficult. Additionally, it badly interferes with treating the splice with RP-25 or other anti-chafe treatments, should you choose to.

Thinwater, can you tell me more about the advantages of using RP-25 on the splice? I found some information about it on line, but I'm still not sure how it would help the splice. Is it used just where the rope passes through the chain? Or elsewhere?

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by JiminVA

Thinwater, can you tell me more about the advantages of using RP-25 on the splice? I found some information about it on line, but I'm still not sure how it would help the splice. Is it used just where the rope passes through the chain? Or elsewhere?

Sorry I didn't get back to this thread sooner. It looks like most of the details of executing them have been covered more or less.
On the above regarding RP25 & similar. The below is a cut & past from another thread, but hopefully it hits the highlights:

Primarily RP25, Maxi Jacket, Maxi Jacket II, etc are water based Urethanes that you paint onto the rope anywhere that you want to enhance it's chafe, & UV resistance. Sheaves, clutches, cleats, rings, spreaders, luggage tags/splices, etc., etc. Even high wear points on docklines.
The numbers for increased rope lifespan hover between 30-50% (sometimes much more). And because it can assist with preventing cover on core slippage, your clutches tend to work better. Plus it glues a rope's fibers together, so they're far less likely to get snagged on things. Thus extending the rope's life, even/especially bare 12-strand lines/cores.

Yale makes Maxi Jacket, & Maxi Jacket II Sailing Rope Coatings | Yale Cordage
Spinlock makes RP25 https://www.spinlock.co.uk/en/categories/more-hardware/product_groups/rp25
And evidently Marlow makes something similar, as I imagine does Samson, given their mention of the Samthane coating which comes on their ropes when new. And these aftermarket coatings are like a super strength version of the coatings that come on new lines. The same coatings which make them shiny & slippery. A trait not found on older, well used lines. As such coatings do wear, & also can get washed off by excessive or harsh rope cleaning, solvents, or frequent launderings.

The stuff comes in quantities anywhere from 4oz to gallons (& probably larger), & Maxi Jacket/II is available in multiple colors, as well as clear. So you can color code your lines, always a handy feature.
You may get a bit of sticker shock at it's price, but consider what a replacement dockline or piece of running rigging costs.
But until you're sold, or not, you could split a larger quantity with a friend or three. That, or buy the tiny sized jars. Though "it must work", as it's been quite popular on the racing circuit since the early 2000's. Starting on the professional boats, & trickling down.

Lots of major rigging shops carry it: APSltd.com, VelaSailingSupply.com, KnotAndRope.com (which has a few customer reviews of Maxi Jacket). Plus some arborist gear suppliers. Which the latter tend to have cordage cheaper than do marine stockists.

Also, I think thinwater did a bit of a product evaluation on some of these coatings in Practical Sailor. In, or concurrent with an article on splicing, but I'm not 100% certain on this. And there's more info on other sailing sites too, such as Sailing Anarchy Forums. Here for example RP 25 - Gear Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums

Note that as it wears, & breaks down, it will flake off in tiny pieces, or thin slivers. But nothing worth being alarmed about. And while it's not a magic bullet, or for every line/application, it's worth experimenting with it.

Some Sources of the stuff:
https://www.velasailingsupply.com/spinlock-rp25-rope-treatment-250ml/
https://www.velasailingsupply.com/yale-cordage-maxijacket-quart/
Search results for: 'rp25' | APS
Yale Cordage Maxi Jacket: Quart | APS
Yale Cordage Maxi Jacket: High Performance, Quart | APS
https://www.knotandrope.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=752&idcategory=0
https://www.mauripro.com/us/SRCH.html

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

...........

^^ Everything he said. Careful twist and tension in the early steps, loose when tucking.

No, I have not tried RP-25 over gel. It just strikes me as counter to everything we know about good surface prep. So it is a guess. As a practical matter, RP-25 is solvent-based, so it will not penetrate if the rope is still damp. Yale Maxijacket is also very effective and is water based, but it stiffens the rope to much for this application in my opinion. I love it for many other splices, for snubbers, and for dock lines (where chafe gear does not fit).

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by JiminVA

Thinwater, can you tell me more about the advantages of using RP-25 on the splice? I found some information about it on line, but I'm still not sure how it would help the splice. Is it used just where the rope passes through the chain? Or elsewhere?

I did some testing of many chafe products for PRactical Sailor.
https://www.practical-sailor.com/iss...n_11640-1.html

In addition to physical coverings, there are coatings. Some ropes come with something effective, but RP-25 (Spinlock) and Maxijacket (Yale) can be painted on for additional protection. They don't help Dyneema much, but they can increase wear from 3-10 times.

They both stiffen the rope and are ONLY applied to high wear areas. RP-25 is solvent based, pentrates better, stiffens less, bond the cover to the core, and improves wear 3-4 times. Maxijacket is water based, protects much better, and stiffens the line more.

For example, I like RP-25 on my furler line (stripped core). It reduces chafe when used as a roller-reefed sail without stiffening the line much. However, I only coat the parts I don't handle.

I like Maxijacket for docklines and for docklines and for snubber splices (the end that can rub on the bottom in shallow water). It really stiffens the line too much to handle well, but it is more slender than chafe gear (though chafe gear is better). You can also coat the chafe gear with Maxijacket, and it will really wear like iron.

In this case you could coat first 6 inches of the splice, in my opinion. This is the vulnerable part, and the part that will take the most friction on the bottom. It is not the chain-rope friction that is the concern, but rather the rope-bottom friction. This is most important for a sailor that is using a relatively short chain, say, less than 40 feet, where the splice will be on the bottom frequently. These coatings also help secure a splice from working loose, though lock stitching is better.

Google them.

[thinwater]

FYI

Knot and Rope will sell you ~ 4 oz. of Maxijacket for ~ $8.

Use clear. The other colors can rub off on stuff.

The surface coating doesn't matter, so don't try 2 coats. I think the mechanism is related to it holding the worn surface fuzz in place so that wear does not proceed. What ever the case, it is the soaked-in material that does the good, so one heavy coat is enough. Some folks dip the splice or soak it, but in my experience, that just makes it heavier and stiffer with no additional benefit (by the time a rope wears that deep, it's done).