How strong is a Cleat Hitch?

[CarlF]

Turns out it depends on which cleat hitch.

The "half wrap" hitch favored in North America where the line only goes halfway around the cleat before going over a horn will slip long before the line breaks if the line is small for the cleat (as most dock lines are for marina cleats). Extra loops over the horn won't help.

The "full wrap" where the line goes all the way around the base before going over a horn is favored in Europe and is much more secure - but if the line is big for the cleat it can be hard to free.

This was all news to me as I've always tied the half-wrap. Perhaps this can be the new "anchor" thread issue. The whole anchor thing seems to have died down.

In this video, the expert recommends only using the half-wrap if you plan to keep the boat in sight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBqsF72xNSU

[BlackHeron]

Originally Posted by CarlF

Turns out it depends on which cleat hitch.

The "half wrap" hitch favored in North America where the line only goes halfway around the cleat before going over a horn will slip long before the line breaks if the line is small for the cleat (as most dock lines are for marina cleats). Extra loops over the horn won't help.

The "full wrap" where the line goes all the way around the base before going over a horn is favored in Europe and is much more secure - but if the line is big for the cleat it can be hard to free.

This was all news to me as I've always tied the half-wrap. Perhaps this can be the new "anchor" thread issue. The whole anchor thing seems to have died down.

In this video, the expert recommends only using the half-wrap if you plan to keep the boat in sight.

Those guys at APS have what I think is the best answer here to the cleat knot discussion. Sizing the cleat to the line is a big deal. If the cleat is too large for the line wrapping more tuns on the cleat before the crossing hitches (just like putting more turns on a winch) will give you extra purchase and the line will not slip. The top locking cross pattern doesn't hold much extra and putting more crossing loops doesn't help much. The only downside to putting more turns on the bottom is that unlike a winch (or like one when you get an over-wrap) it might not come off as easily.


How to Tie a Cleat Hitch, Three Ways | APS Advisor

[Chas.7]

Hello,
With a cleat you will use a round turn and then some 3 figure 8’s then the hitch.
If the line is 100% the round turn will be about 75% of that and the cleat hitch maybe just get very tight.
On large ships I’ve worked on we don’t use cleat hitched because you may need an axe to get it back off and the price of the line makes that expensive.
Good luck

[MarkusK]

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

Those guys at APS have what I think is the best answer here to the cleat knot discussion. Sizing the cleat to the line is a big deal. If the cleat is too large for the line wrapping more tuns on the cleat before the crossing hitches (just like putting more turns on a winch) will give you extra purchase and the line will not slip. The top locking cross pattern doesn't hold much extra and putting more crossing loops doesn't help much. The only downside to putting more turns on the bottom is that unlike a winch (or like one when you get an over-wrap) it might not come off as easily.


How to Tie a Cleat Hitch, Three Ways | APS Advisor

Agreed. I was thinking, bah, I'm not going to watch this video...I know how to tie to a cleat. But this video gave me more depth on the subject.

[Chas.7]

When I was in school, years ago. They rated the bowline was about 95%. The granny knot was rated about 50% or less.
Good luck,

[StuM]

Originally Posted by MarkusK

Agreed. I was thinking, bah, I'm not going to watch this video...I know how to tie to a cleat. But this video gave me more depth on the subject.

And then it started...


Don't just accept that video as gospel.



Personally I disagree with his conclusions.



As far as I'm concerned, the risk of multiple turns around the cleat and a single crossover followed by a weather hitch has far too much risk of over-rides under the horns if loads are variable - and resultant jams.



I'll stick with my single turn and multiple Figure 8s.


I can't agree that additional Figure 8s don't add much. Not only do you get additional friction round each horn (where the bearing surface is actually greater than the bearing surface of a half turn around a leg), you also get a "pinch friction" effect between lines running in opposite directions.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Chas.7

When I was in school, years ago. They rated the bowline was about 95%. The granny knot was rated about 50% or less.
Good luck,

95% of line strength? That's remarkably high. Most "authorities" put it t around 65% ater considerable testing.



I don't know of anyone who has bothered to test a granny knot. My guess would be that it will fail at a lot less than 50%.

[chris mac]

It is an interesting video. I was taught full round, lock, then the xtra rounds to clean up excess line, and give extra hold.
So same as the video, just adding the xtra rounds after instead of before. It does seem to hold well.
As someone else mentioned earlier, the lag screws let go of the rotten lumber before the hitch fails.

[double u]

youall krauz at heart?

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by chris mac

As someone else mentioned earlier, the lag screws let go of the rotten lumber before the hitch fails.

Right so and not just of the rotten lumber. The problem with the recommendations on the video is the sizing is for pier queens or as said in the beginning "lunch hitches". Not for serious duty to speak of, not with the size of the bolt holes they have..

Teddy

[jmschmidt]

If a proper cleat hitch with a suitable line size is used the cleat will rip out of the boat before either the hitch slips or the line breaks. I can send you a picture of my boat in the BVI with a 3x1 foot long fiberglass piece of the boat gone where the cleat was mounted. Somewhere that cleat and line are still attached to each other, probably on the bottom, still secured to a sunken dock. Most of the docks were only destroyed because boats were tied to them. At some point in the storm, should the boats have been cut loose to save the docks and save even worse damage to the boats?

[jkindredpdx]

Originally Posted by Bill Seal

Around our marina, it's as strong as the lag bolts that hold the cleat to the rotten fingers.

No kidding... our cleat bolts and fingers are a joke.

[Hartleyg]

I take pictures of distinctive cleat hitch implementations, and I have a couple you might find amusing:



This one will probably hold quite a bit, though they're not gonna have a quick getaway..





This is how Chapman's tells you to do it, though some folks don't like the Flemish coil as it can grab your foot.





This is how I did my "home base" docklines - spliced up well in advance, with color-coded chains and cleats (the two lines here are bow breast and forward spring lines) and spliced loops on the boat end. Chafe protection over the line at the boat cleat and chocks.
Makes giving one to a dockside helper easy ("just put it over the yellow cleat, please") and not prone to any chafe issues. The breast lines had rubber snubbers. I believe the weakest link here is still the cleat and it's bolts.
I swear I saw this in Chapman's, but it isn't in the current edition.


Hartley
S/V Atsa

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Chas.7

When I was in school, years ago. They rated the bowline was about 95%. The granny knot was rated about 50% or less.
Good luck,

"When I was in school, years ago, they rated the bowline at about 95% of line strength. The granny knot was rated at about 50% or less.
Good luck."


The bowline is typically 45-60% of line strength. The granny know is not a proper knot and is seldom tested. You may have missed a few things.

[BlackHeron]

The bowline should break at about 2/3 the line strength +/- depending on the type and material of the cordage used.

When it doubt, turn to science with observation and experimentation using controlled testing.

She blinded me with science.