How much is too much (anchor and chain)

[darylat8750]

Originally Posted by thomm225

If you like to shop and buy stuff, go for the new gen anchors, but CQR's work great in mud and have saved me countless times on lee shores down here

Mine was dug in so deep a couple weeks ago at Kiptopeke due to strong wind and tide change, it had a ton of mud stuck to the shank and lower chain

OK, It is an anchor thread after all.... I drug a genuine CQR all over the Chesapeake. And yes I let theCQR soak. I let it soak and then tried gently moving it a couple of feet and let it soak again. It was a pleasant evening with very light winds so I took it as a challenge to figure out a way to get it to hold. Reset near one creek half a dozen times before giving up and launching the Fortress. I've since replaced the CQR with a Rocna and am satisfied with the performance. After following Nolex77 's anchor thread if buying a new anchor now (Having the Fortress as a kedge) I would most likely buy a Mantus.

This thread is a must read for anyone interested in staying put on the hook.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ng-126073.html

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by darylat8750

OK, It is an anchor thread after all.... I drug a genuine CQR all over the Chesapeake. And yes I let theCQR soak. I let it soak and then tried gently moving it a couple of feet and let it soak again. It was a pleasant evening with very light winds so I took it as a challenge to figure out a way to get it to hold. Reset near one creek half a dozen times before giving up and launching the Fortress. I've since replaced the CQR with a Rocna and am satisfied with the performance. After following Nolex77 's anchor thread if buying a new anchor now (Having the Fortress as a kedge) I would most likely buy a Mantus.

This thread is a must read for anyone interested in staying put on the hook.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ng-126073.html

Strange, do you have much experience anchoring? Was the anchor too small for your boat? It could be lots of reasons why it did hold.

I've had this boat since 2011 and have used only the CQR that was on the bow when I got it. It had been well used which tells you something right there. The other 4 anchors on the boat have never even been wet.

I tossed it over in the video below and didn't back down. It was maybe 30 minutes before the squall hit. I was in the same spot the next morning as always. (on both days)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHt7ocBZKms

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBwFOdJemV4

[darylat8750]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Strange, do you have much experience anchoring? Was the anchor too small for your boat? It could be lots of reasons why it did hold.

I've had this boat since 2011 and have used only the CQR that was on the bow when I got it. It had been well used which tells you something right there. The other 4 anchors on the boat have never even been wet.

I tossed it over in the video below and didn't back down. It was maybe 30 minutes before the squall hit. I was in the same spot the next morning as always. (on both days)

I have a reasonable amount of experience. Bought this boat (old 44ft trawler) in 2008. Spent 2 years cruising out of Isla Mujeres in Mexico. I've done America's Great Loop and about another half of the Loop. Boat is on the Chesapeake now. Anchor 85%+ of the time we are cruising. Never had a real problem with the CQR until I got to the soft mud by the creeks on the Chesapeake. CQR was the gold standard for many years but the new generation anchors are just better. Look at Nolex77's thread.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by darylat8750

I have a reasonable amount of experience. Bought this boat (old 44ft trawler) in 2008. Spent 2 years cruising out of Isla Mujeres in Mexico. I've done America's Great Loop and about another half of the Loop. Boat is on the Chesapeake now. Anchor 85%+ of the time we are cruising. Never had a real problem with the CQR until I got to the soft mud by the creeks on the Chesapeake. CQR was the gold standard for many years but the new generation anchors are just better. Look at Nolex77's thread.

I'm sure the new gen anchors are good, but I have yet to have trouble with my old worn CQR which is why I haven't really checked out the newer models yet

I keep my Bruce at the ready on those rough windy nights when I'm anchored in a bad spot against a lee shore but have yet to need it.

In the pre-squall video above, I would have just been push out into the bay most likely and would have had plenty of time to reset the anchor or just drift for a while. Plus it was daylight and only around 4 pm which would have made things much easier than if was 3 am or so

[MSVAthenea]

First of all, congrats on the new boat and Welcome to the Chesapeake Bay. I have a big cat so not the same boat but I use a CQR and BRUCE just fine in the bay (And all over the world, too). Lots of mud to play with in the northern part of the Bay. Some good advice on lighter tackle has been already provided and this would relieve some of the pressure on the front end. Good luck and hope to see you out sailing.

//Frank

[CarlF]

Much of the advise here comes from people who don't know the Shannon bowsprit anchor arrangement. The CQR is the primary anchor and on a roller to the side of the bowsprit. Hoop anchors like the Rocna won't fit. Your backup anchor, the Bruce, is a great anchor if heavy. Lighter ones don't have much holding. Most Shannon owners have replaced them with a Fortress or Danforth.

CQR's primary problem is not with holding. When well dug in with enough scope they hold very well. The problem is getting them to set and especially reset in a middle of the night current or wind change. Too often they end up on their side refusing to dig in at 3AM. Reversing currents are common in the Chesapeake.

I would try the following:

1/4" HT chain - 125 feet spliced to 150ft of nylon for the occasional deep anchorage. You will only use the rope part a few times a year. You will need to change the windlass chain wheel if one is available. Or replace the windlass if it is on its last legs. Otherwise, I'd stick with 125ft of the current chain rather than not have a good windlass.

Replace the CQR with a new-gen hoopless anchor - Spade (galvanized), Vulcan, or Ultra. I'd favor the Spade. Make cardboard patters from their web sites to see which fits your CQR roller best (you may need to do minor surgery on the bowsprit)

Move the Bruce to bilge to get its weight out of the ends. Have the 2nd rode light enough that it can be rowed out in a dinghy as a kedge anchor. New gen anchors are so good that there simply isn't a need for a 2nd anchor always ready on the bow. If the Bruce is too heavy to easily lift into the dinghy leave it in the bilge abd get a Fortress that can also be disassembled for storage or hung on the stern.

Regardless of anchor, use enough scope. I never anchor with less than 5:1 including the height of the bow.

[stevebein]

Originally Posted by cuffy

How much does chain add to holding power?

When cruising and not in shallow waters, the concept of chain was that it formed a catenary and reduced the angle of pull on the anchor, allowing greater setting ability and shorter length of chain needed.


Another comment, someone said a windlass fits only one size. That is incorrect since the gear ( gypsy) which connects to the chain is usually replaceable. You will not need another windlass to change chain, just the gypsy replacement.
I used a mantus anchor and it is a great anchor. Please include that brand when looking. Also the Mantus has the advantage of being able to store flat since it bolts together. Disadvantage, it bolts together. but the bolts are such high test that it is not a problem.
I was happy with their design. Just make sure that whatever anchor fits your bow roller, or change the roller to fit the anchor.
Happy sailing. the comments on smaller are good.
Also, though not regularly used, I always had a stern anchor rigged and ready to go. It came in handy twice. First time was backing into the wind from a slip and in heading to the channel when my shaft connection disconnected. Rocks in front and to one side, boats on the third side. Just popping out the anchor made the issue not a crisis, but something where we could take our time to solve. happy sailing.

[CarlF]

Steve makes a good point about the catenary effect of chain in shallow waters like the Chesapeake. There is none. When anchoring with chain always rig an anchor snubber to take the shock load. Chain can easily break from a sudden shock. I use a 20ft piece of 3 strand nylon with a chain hook. Be sure to let out 3 or 4 feet of extra loose chain as the nylon snubber can easily stretch that much.

A chain rode tends to keep a boat from tacking as much on its anchor and you will also swing more in synch with other boats in the anchorage.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by thinwater

First, this is an anchor thread and there will be hundreds of answers. Your fault.


Yes, that is too much weight. The big savings will be going to 1/4-inch G4 chain. That may be enough. For day sailing I would also move one (Bruce) to the bilge. Since the second is only a backup, and because cutting in your area is extremely rare, I would reduce the chain to about 20 feet.



Want to save more? Replace the 35# Bruce with a Fortress FX 12. Better in mud for 6x less weight. Then replace the CQR with a 25# Rocna/Supreme/Mantus.


---


I'm a long-time Chesapeake sailor and cruiser. I actually use lighter tackle that that, but I don't want to scare anyone. What I have suggested is conservative for your boat.

My sentiments precisely. We are cruising extensively and live aboard in the Caribbean. Primary is a Rocna. Secondary is Bruce. I have used the Bruce only twice in ten years and then only in the Great Lakes North Chanel. We replaced our crappy CQR with a Rocna. The CQR dragged one in five times. The Rocna is as close to a drop and forget anchor as you can get, as are the others noted. The Rocna with sufficient scope needs very little chain mass, particularly in the Chesapeake.

I wish boats were made with central chain storage at the foot of the mast where the weight helps or at least does the least harm. Cats were forced to address this long ago but mono builders hang on to the old ways. We pounds on our bow.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by CarlF

CQR's primary problem is not with holding. When well dug in with enough scope they hold very well. The problem is getting them to set and especially reset in a middle of the night current or wind change. Too often they end up on their side refusing to dig in at 3AM. Reversing currents are common in the Chesapeake.

I'm not sure why this continually comes up concerning the CQR.

I'm often anchored at Kiptopeke which has some really strong current and a tide that turns every 6 hours or so.

Many times with the current, there are some good size waves that are sometimes coming in off the Atlantic

So far the CQR has held without a problem in winds of near 25 knots. This up near shore, a lee shore at times

I now though get really close to the cement ships and anchor in the deeper water there and have the protection of the ships but have to deal the the boat rotating during tide change and possible waves on the beam during transition

I have an old CQR and maybe 25'-30' of chain. I let the tide and wind on the boat set the anchor. This for the last 7 years with this particular boat and anchor

[Scout 30]

It's great finally seeing some good things said about the old CQR. We've used them for decades & while sometimes tough to set have proven reliable in all kinds of conditions. We've always used a 7-1 scope when possible & backed down hard to test. Never had a problem with direction changes, which we have every night, because once set it will stay buried while it turns so it doesn't have to reset. On our current Scout 30 we have been 2 25lb CQRs with 40' of 3/8 chain & 250' of 5/8 line. We use a Danforth High Tensile for the stern anchor.

That being said I've recently bought a 27lb Rocna Vulcan. Haven't tried it yet but we're looking forward to very quick & easy sets on less scope.

[Stu Jackson]

Many folks have posited using 125 feet of chain plus rode and a snubber. A friend of mine had what I think is a better idea:


Steve’s Anchoring 101

The Rocna. All 20kg of it with 100ft of chain. The rest of the world can debate all they like. When I pull into a place like Bodega Bay at midnight and the fog is so thick I can't see the jetty 50 feet away to make an entrance, I drop my hook in the rolling ocean swells with the surf crashing (Foster says it's like staying in a cheap Best Western beside the highway), and I sleep. And in the morning I have a windlass to pull the beast up and I wouldn't trade it for anything. (I also wouldn't add more chain - this works perfectly in 25 to 30 feet of water - you let all the chain out and you tie off nylon at the preferred scope and don't bother with snubbers and chain hooks and all that stuff...)

[sailingharry]

Well, you've had a fair amount of replies! I sail a 12,000 pound Sabre 34 out of Annapolis, and anchor almost all the time. The boat came with 8' of 3/8 chain and 180' of 3/4 laid nylon -- much too thick, but it's what it came with. It also came with a 25 pound CQR. I sold the CQR and bought a 35 pound Bruce (genuine, not knock-off). I anchor nearly all the time, and never budge.

A couple comments.
* The Bruce rocks. Really, I love it.
* I have no windlass, and recover by hand. This 57 year old guy can pull up a 35 lb anchor and 8' of chain with no problem. Wouldn't want more.
* The rope has shown no signs of chafe, despite years being pulled across Chesapeake mud... LOL. Really, a big benefit of chain is chafe protection in rock and coral -- we don't have that where you sail!
* Nylon rode is awesome. The boat doesn't jerk around, it is very light, I don't mess with a snubber, I don't need a windlass. Maybe in some places with some bottoms and some boats, chain has value -- but not on a 30-ish boat in the Chesapeake Bay!
* If I were buying new rode, I'd go with a NE Ropes plait version -- they are so nice to handle and store.
* For your size boat, I wouldn't go heavier than 35 pounds (unless you go next generation -- they seem to require heavier anchors than the older styles like Bruce, Danforth, or CQR).
* The only money I would spend would be to replace your chain with a much shorter length of chain and mostly nylon. I routinely anchor on the Bay in 10 feet or so of water, with about 60-80 feet of rode out. 150 feet will give you 5-1 in 30 feet of water (not sure where you would find that!) and 7-1 in 20 feet of water.
* I would have real trouble spending limited boat budget on a new anchor for your boat. A 35 pound Bruce is all you need, and the CQR isn't any slouch either (but not my preference). The Bay is full of well protected anchorages with good bottom, and I don't think you are planning on weathering any hurricanes in your cruising plans....
Harry

[parkstone bay]

From the UK:- the traditional rule of thumb was 1lb of anchor per foot of boat. Your boat is, presumably, 28ft? So, on the face of it, 2 x 35 pounders on the bow would seem a trifle excessive.
I don't know the Chesapeake Bay, but from previous comments, it's generally fairly shallow, with mud or sand bottom. I'd support what a few others have said, and downsize your usual anchor to either a Rocna/Manson/Spade or a Delta of around 28lb. And perhaps reduce the chain to around 50 ft.
Whatever you opt for, follow these rules: 1. Always prepare your anchor plan in advance. Anchoring in a rush will guarantee a problem. 2. When in postion, STOP the boat. Don't try anchoring with the boat moving. 3. LOWER the anchor to the bottom. 4. As the boat begins to drift, let out approx another 50% of the depth, as rode. 5. Snub the rode,. 6. As the load comes onto the rode, let out another 50%. 7. Again snub the rode. (by now the anchor may even be beginning to hold). 8. Let out another 100% of depth, and snub. (at 3x depth, it WILL hold). (The recommendation for chain used to be minimum 3 x depth, so it's getting good. Indeed, if it's only a lunch stop, you might leave it at that. Otherwise, give it another 100% - 150% depth, especially if you're expecting your buddy to come alongside you and raft up) This gradual process does take several minutes, but it ensures the anchor bites, and that the rode leads fair away from the anchor. Couple of other points: always measure rode as 'cable n the water' , not from the windlass or bow roller. And, last winter, you did mark your rode clearly at suitable intervals, and make a note of what the marks mean, so someone else on the foredeck knows what he is doing, didn't you? Andrew

[parkstone bay]

Following my last, you've a boat displacing 4.1/2 tons. No need to 'give her a blast in astern to help the anchor bite' : there's a lot of inertia at only 1/4 knot. Finally, on one anchoring forum was a really valid point, if you're anchored in a heavy breeze, with a Lee shore and poor holding, you won't say: shucks I wish I'd bought that lighter anchor!