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Old 14-02-2016, 06:06   #1
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Ground tackle specification overlap

Ground tackle for a 32ft sailboat displacing 5.3 tonnes.

There seem to be some large overlaps in specifications recommended by anchor makers, and I do wonder if there is an understandable, belt, braces, and add an extra 50% for good measure, in a few cases.

Now the 'spread' for worst conditions use I have seen for that 32ft boat, with anchors is a range from 10kg to 15kg (22lb to 35lb), chain 1/4" HT to 5/16" HT, Nylon rode from 5/16" to 5/8".

I am more than fine with bigger and heavier for the Storm anchor, and 'might' be fine with bigger and heavier 5/16" all chain to go with that (say 275ft for 256lbs?). Even if it means having that ready to go but kept down below, close to the mast, until I can get a windlass installed (other than in emergencies, I don't particularly want to have anything to do with manually hauling it, until I get on top of health issues and/or have that windlass).

I suppose I just want a bit of reassurance and advice, about maybe using that 35lb/15kg new generation anchor (or perhaps a cheaper Bruce at 33lb, to save wear and tear on the Storm anchor until it is needed?), with say 120ft of 1/4" HT, and 250ft of 1/2" nylon rode? Could be better I suppose, to have that 250ft of nylon rode at 5/8" to be able to use with the Storm anchor and chain, but I wonder about relative lack of stretch in 'average' conditions.

The lighter specifications do seem to have 'upper limits' for their figures for 60 mph winds. In those circumstances, if such conditions are arriving and likely to be deteriorating even further, if I can't get out of Dodge and into shelter (hopefully I'd be long gone, but really bad can, even though very rarely, come from nowhere really fast, with not much warning), then having that heavier Storm anchor (in great condition) with full 5/16" HT chain (also in great condition), and a nice snubber, ready to deploy, is very attractive.

Would it perhaps make sense then, to have each end of the specification overlap covered (pushing costs up a bit), with an easier to handle setup at quite a lower cost, taking the brunt of the day to day wear and tear?

Depending on just what I need to do PDQ post survey and haulout, I might be able to manage a Maxwell RC8-8 windlass right away (especially if I postpone the CopperCoat until next year, and use a self polishing antifoul this year while hauled out), then the second anchor setup can be based around 5/16" HT chain and 5/8" nylon too.

Then if just 1/4" HT chain is more than adequate for the boat (supposedly good up to 35ft), then I can still get a 35lb main anchor, a much cheaper Maxwell RC8-6, and a second anchor with 1/4" HT chain and 1/2" nylon rope. Chain will be American made, hot dip galvanised (whatever size I use).

It's the size of the overlap with the recommendations, that's doing my head in.

eta: I do suspect the 5/16" spec for nylon rode, might have been a typo. Struck me as too low.
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Old 14-02-2016, 06:54   #2
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

I believe I can help in your decision-making process but I am very sensitive to the rules on the forum prohibiting advertising. Therefore, I recommend you contact me off the forum. There are reasonable options available for you that will handle the conditions you suspect you will encounter.
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Old 14-02-2016, 07:14   #3
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

You might get more responses if you tell us your anticipated cruising grounds. For instance, I think 275' of chain would be overkill in my areas.

There have been so many anchor threads that many people avoid them on general principles. A Google search will turn up a lot of opinions.
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Old 14-02-2016, 07:21   #4
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

I have used a 15KG Rocna for several years. It really is a better mousetrap. My boat displaces about 50% more than yours. The rode selection is where I might cut the corners if needed. 1/2" or 5/8 nylon with a boat length of chain is a pretty good substitute if coral and rocks are not in your future.

Also if anchoring in close conditions the Rocna works with scopes approaching 3 to 1. One down side is that after a little blow getting that thing out of the bottom can take the engine and boat. Couple of times I have expected to see the windlass explode and we have tripped the breaker. Never saw that with a lot of years with a similar weight Delta.

Cbreeze has 100 ft of 5/16 BBB and 250 ft of 5/8 nylon. 11 years of East Coast/ Gulf Coast and the Bahamas, the nylon has never seen the light of day.
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Old 14-02-2016, 07:34   #5
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

Parsimony should not be your primary guide to anchor/rode selection. Size your windlass, anchor and chain for worst case conditions.
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Old 14-02-2016, 07:59   #6
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

Thanks all for the responses (Steve will PM).

Quote:
Originally Posted by FSMike View Post
You might get more responses if you tell us your anticipated cruising grounds. For instance, I think 275' of chain would be overkill in my areas.

There have been so many anchor threads that many people avoid them on general principles. A Google search will turn up a lot of opinions.
I do agree about the anchor threads, but a search didn't highlight the surprising width of the specification overlap (this especially given recent mention of the larger and much heavier boats that are using 5/16" chain, and the very interesting related comments of a64pilot and others, which themselves illustrated a significant specification overlap), which raises issues. There is the point that over specifying might prove more of a disadvantage than an advantage in certain areas (and I am not talking about cost, though that too isn't excluded) - in particular ease of handling that ground tackle, and not being discouraged from making sure all is set properly. If 1/4" HT is plenty strong enough (all chain primary) and 1/2" nylon is plenty strong enough (chain and rode secondary), then I will sleep easier, plus have an easier time of handling it, along with buying half a barrel giving 400ft of it, so I can cut 300 ft for the main anchor, and use 100ft for the secondary.

Travel initially will be Florida, then down through the Caribbean, across the Pond then up to the UK (returning there fairly frequently), down to the Med, back across the Pond to the Caribbean, back up to visit USA for a bit (longer visitors permit, rather than get out of town by a certain time after buying the boat - and if I put off the Coppercoat for a year to get the Maxwell RC8-8, will have that done then), then back to the Caribbean. From there I do fancy heading to the South Atlantic for a bit (keeping North of the cold stuff), then who knows.

After a while I will be in a much better position to tailor ground tackle investment (I intend primarily living at anchor, if not travelling), given likely caution with the initial expense of the boat acquisition, and getting things 100% fit to travel. I like the look of all the new generation anchors, and may go with a #15 Vulcan backed up with a 33lb Bruce (I did get on ok with them before, in UK waters local to me), then add a 2nd new generation anchor later.

I would like to get the CopperCoat out of the way, but have been leaning heavily towards the Maxwell RC8-8 and the 5/16" HT chain setup. But it may be way over the top for what is needed. I might just be being considerably over cautious (which is ok up to a point), and as a result could be on the verge of giving myself a lot of unnecessary backache (195lbs for 300ft of 1/4" vs 256lbs for the 5/16", is more than the straw that might break the camel's back), as well as unnecessary extra expense.

Thanks again all, your advice is always gratefully received.
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Old 14-02-2016, 08:19   #7
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankly View Post
I have used a 15KG Rocna for several years. It really is a better mousetrap. My boat displaces about 50% more than yours. The rode selection is where I might cut the corners if needed. 1/2" or 5/8 nylon with a boat length of chain is a pretty good substitute if coral and rocks are not in your future.

Also if anchoring in close conditions the Rocna works with scopes approaching 3 to 1. One down side is that after a little blow getting that thing out of the bottom can take the engine and boat. Couple of times I have expected to see the windlass explode and we have tripped the breaker. Never saw that with a lot of years with a similar weight Delta.

Cbreeze has 100 ft of 5/16 BBB and 250 ft of 5/8 nylon. 11 years of East Coast/ Gulf Coast and the Bahamas, the nylon has never seen the light of day.
That's a great example of the specification width I spotted, in the discussions about the 5/16" chain, which caused me to look for such a large specification width with the 1/4" chain, and there it was.

Much longer boats than 32ft, with even double the displacement, were using 5/16" chain.

So then the thought came, given that mine seems to be clearly within the specification range for 1/4" chain and 1/2" nylon, and so clearly at the bottom end (or below) for 5/16" chain and 5/8" nylon, could I actually be making things worse, rather than better, by over specifying? It can happen, after all (e.g. losing too much useful and even essential shock absorbing elasticity, with the nylon).

I don't just don't know enough yet, to ensure I get an optimum setup (my knowledge base is out of date with regard to presently available products).
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Old 14-02-2016, 08:21   #8
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

Unsubscribed.
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Old 14-02-2016, 08:23   #9
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

Here's how I did mine:

Anchor System Sizing Tables (Reply #6) & Why Swivels are a bad idea Ground Tackle & Anchor System Sizing TABLES & Swivels
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Old 14-02-2016, 08:25   #10
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

I went with 5/16" HT for my 10000# 27' boat. The 1/4" is just on the edge of being recommended, but any loss of size due to corrosion would put it under my personal safety limit.
I bought 180' of chain and 100' of 5/8" mega plait. I figure I'll use all chain until 30' deep and combo chain/rode after that. I'd like more, but my chain locker is stuffed.
As for the Bruce anchor, that's all I used on my last boat (35' 13,000#) with 40 feet of 5/16", and it held me well around Vancouver Island and further North.
I just acquired a Vulcan to replace my old rusted out CQR, it fits great on my sprit where a roll bar wouldn't have, but I haven't had a chance to get it wet yet.

Good luck,

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Old 14-02-2016, 09:38   #11
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

Well I'm pretty well reassured now, other than still having slight doubts with 5/8" Nylon perhaps being too stiff for optimum shock absorbing for the boat (that's the spec for the windlass with 5/16" chain, so not exactly any option anyway).

So a Maxwell RC8-8 windlass it will be, full 275ft of 5/16" chain for the main anchor (I can try different diameter nylon for the snubber, to get the best shock absorbing effect, then translate that into the setup for the second anchor along the way), and the CopperCoat gets done next Winter, when I'm back across with more time available.

Sounds like a plan.

Thanks Stu J for the tables, they were a big help, and Goat, I'll be really interested to hear how you get on with that Vulcan (the name got me right away - another Vulcan was my favourite bomber), and like for you, my old Bruce was great in local waters (so I don't mind one as a second anchor, it'll get used ok in local waters when I am home, and save a lot of wear and tear on 'the best stuff').

Much appreciated, all.
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Old 14-02-2016, 09:52   #12
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

for cruising, I think in the end you will find that about 35# rated anchor for your boat is good. Bigger in a Bruce. 5/8 nylon.... easier on the hands. The stuff stretches a lot under load, I wouldn't worry about that. 5/16 chain is plenty. the right rated 1/4 might be best.
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Old 14-02-2016, 09:59   #13
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribbit View Post
Ground tackle for a 32ft sailboat displacing 5.3 tonnes. . . . ..
Anchor and rode loads are much more related to windage of a boat than to its mass. What is the beam and mast height of your boat? What boat do you have?
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Old 14-02-2016, 10:50   #14
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

To me, the itinerary suggests all chain rode, and I think that eventually, you will agree. I think I would get that windlass sooner rather than later, and maybe just go with the big anchor and get the smaller one, which you will only need to use if you lose the larger one, later. Nothing wrong with always having your "storm" anchor down. Makes for good sleeping and less worry when you are ashore and a squall comes along!
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Old 14-02-2016, 11:38   #15
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

Back in the days when I worked as a oilfield diver on pipe lawing barges and drilling rigs, I saw them pick up the anchor and add another with cable between, creating a tandem, when they were dragging, always worked. Once while anchored off the top of Sumatra with a Typhoon on its way in the Bay of Bengal, I put my 2 anchors down in tandem, let out all my chain with all my rode attached and we went to the beach and watched green water submerge the boat, but she didn't move, the point being instead of carrying a Big storm anchor, whose size and weight is a storage problem, I feel its better to have 2 of the same size to rig as described in storm conditions.
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