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Old 14-02-2016, 13:07   #16
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

I am an old guy but I was able to pull a 45 pound Mason supreme with 50 for the chain by hand with no real issue . I certainly would go over sized on the anchor if my Bow pulpit could handle it. I think you will find with the new generation anchor it will be unnecessary to have two anchors hanging off the bow
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Old 14-02-2016, 15:36   #17
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

Whilst i could debate some of the points you make, you are clearly giving this enough thought to make a sensible decision. You might find the following article helpful in coming to a conclusion:
abba.org.au/toolbox-activity/dec-2014-technical-meeting/
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Old 14-02-2016, 15:56   #18
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

A few points that come to mind:

Worrying about wear and tear on your anchor is a low priority IMO. Similar thoughts about chain.

The subject is often debated here, but heavier chain, even under severe conditions helps dampen surging.

1/2 inch nylon will stretch quite adequately for snubbing.

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Old 14-02-2016, 16:03   #19
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
Anchor and rode loads are much more related to windage of a boat than to its mass. What is the beam and mast height of your boat? What boat do you have?
Endeavour 32 (still subject to survey and test sail, deposit in escrow), beam 9.75' , mast height from DWL 43ft.

Thanks again all for the extra clarity, the link for extra reading, and also the point about tandem anchors (which seems well worth considering getting two anchors the same at some point), really appreciated.

Given past results, once I have been able to start swimming again, and have a few months of that sorted, I am pretty sure being able to physically manhandling things like anchors and chains, will improve dramatically.

Just got to get a minor op out of the way and recover from it, and it's off to get the boat.
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Old 14-02-2016, 17:29   #20
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

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Whilst i could debate some of the points you make, you are clearly giving this enough thought to make a sensible decision. You might find the following article helpful in coming to a conclusion:
abba.org.au/toolbox-activity/dec-2014-technical-meeting/
Kim that was a really excellent read, and to me it is worthy of being a sticky in this Anchoring Forum!

Extra anchors and rodes definitely ride in the cockpit locker. Out goes the Bruce, and in comes a Fortress for different bottoms, and an equal weight same new type to the main anchor comes in for Second Anchor/Tandem use.

All chain on main, and use snubbers. I'll try and get chain storage back towards the mast some, and get the windlass battery thereabouts too. I'll definitely get a chain sample to take to the windlass shop to test the fit too.

What your article suggests to me, is a place for two snubbers. A lighter one for normal use, so the stretch distance and 'spring back' will fit within a spread of 'normal conditions' wave heights and frequencies, to help give a comfortable motion to the boat, not exceeding its stretch and recovery period, so perhaps a longer than usual snubber to accommodate enough variety (without over accelerating down the slope of low height waves?), and a heavier one with more resistance and slower stretch for storm wave heights, and a faster spring back for the shorter wave frequencies (the light one will be badly under damped in its desirable effects then I think?), so things can be better set up 'back at the starting point' in the wave trough, ready for the following wave?

That may not make any sense at all though.

Thanks again Kim.
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Old 14-02-2016, 19:07   #21
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

Going manual I would go just one size up. Except where the manufacturer gives storm sizes as THE sizes.

When a winch is available, it is basically hard to go 'too big' unless one really tries hard to.

I think an average 32 er may do mostly fine with something like a 50 pounder, some 8mm chain and some rope (I like minimum 16 mm rope as the smaller dias seem more difficult to handle them). How much rode will depend on where you anchor. Chain only, where in doubt (e.g. rock and coral bottoms).

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Old 15-02-2016, 07:16   #22
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

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Going manual I would go just one size up. Except where the manufacturer gives storm sizes as THE sizes.

When a winch is available, it is basically hard to go 'too big' unless one really tries hard to.

I think an average 32 er may do mostly fine with something like a 50 pounder, some 8mm chain and some rope (I like minimum 16 mm rope as the smaller dias seem more difficult to handle them). How much rode will depend on where you anchor. Chain only, where in doubt (e.g. rock and coral bottoms).

b.
That's an interesting point. If I get the windlass right off the bat, I could indeed go with a bigger storm anchor. But would say having two 15kg Vulcan's for example (for 66lb of anchor in tandem, or available for double anchoring flexibility), be better than having one 55lb anchor? Two 15kg Vulcan's are a fair bit more expensive than the 55lb Rocna, but the second one can be added a bit later, plus the 15kg Vulcan is a lot easier to handle than the 25kg anchor. If funds allow and I can manage the 55lb one ok, I might give that a try though.

There's some really good, solid, core stuff about anchoring surfaced in this thread and it's been great to see. I admit I was brought up 'old school' where the local advice was 3 x scope with chain, and 5 x scope with chain and rope (which has proven to get in the way a bit, causing me some personal confusion and anxiety), and getting that properly binned was important.
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Old 15-02-2016, 07:43   #23
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

Having a second anchor on board is always wise for a number of reasons. However, my suggestion would be to select your main bower anchor for most storm conditions you anticipate encountering. It is not wise to a have main bower that will not handle sudden storms of pretty violent proportions. Check the conditions that an anchor is intended to effectively perform in. If you intend to anchor in weather approaching hurricane conditions, then you should consider deploying a significantly larger anchor and configuration. How many really want to anchor in hurricane conditions? However, sudden squals of extreme nature can happen quickly.

I know of situations where an owner has a moderate sized anchor as a main bower and a large "storm anchor" as a reserve. The storm anchor often does not get deployed because the weather occurs quickly and it is extremely difficult to deploy once the "stuff" starts. Better to have the main bower as an anchor you can rely on for these situations.

An excellent read is a new book on anchoring, titled, "Anchoring, A Ground Tackler's Apprentice" by Rudy and Jill Sechez. Published the Waterway Guide in Deltaville, Virginia. No affiliation to this book but an excellent resource for all who anchor.

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Old 15-02-2016, 13:32   #24
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

Ribbit, I am firmly in the "use your storm anchor all the time' group, and equally prejudiced against tandem anchoring as a routine practice.

The former opinion has been formed over the years of observations, demonstrating that very strong winds can spring up with no forecast and little observational warning. As mentioned above, deploying any second anchor in extreme conditions is difficult and risky, and if it is a really big one, on heavy chain... well, until you have tried it, you'll have a hard time understanding how difficult and dangerous it is. And if you are all the while dragging towards the rocks, well...

On a few rare occasions we have deployed a second anchor, but it isn't a "storm" anchor. Rather it is an old Danforth Hi-tensile, relatively light for its holding power and on a combination rode. When added to our large bower anchor it has helped in some conditions where high winds and soft bottoms have caused dragging. If I were to re-equip, I'd likely replace the Danforth with a similar size (not weight) Fortress for even easier handling.

We've never been tempted to use tandem anchoring. The technique does offer good holding power, but the difficulties in recovering the gear are pretty severe. If you really need to depart from a stormy anchorage (and someday you just might have that happen... we have), dealing with the tandem rig is just a disaster... it is hard enough in calm conditions!

Finally, I'd place the windlass high on the priority list. All the macho talk about hand-weighing anchor gear sounds good, but again, if you really NEED to get the anchor up under severe conditions, doing it by hand is difficult and fraught with bodily risk. The loads imparted on the rode with a wildly pitching bow are damn big, somewhat erratic in timing, and hard to handle.

Cheers,

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Old 15-02-2016, 14:06   #25
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

Excellent advice Jim. Completely agree.

A friend of mine has a 100 lb Luke or Fisherman Anchor that he keeps disassembled in a storage compartment. When a hurricane is eminent (he has successfully anchored in 7), he digs out the Fisheman's Anchor, assembles the monster, drops the dinghy, and takes the anchor out to drop using the dinghy. He chooses the best location to set to allow for maximum protection from the expected storm. Once that anchor is deployed, its back to the boat to firmly set that large anchor. This is all done in relatively calm conditions (before the storm) while he has already firmly set his main bower. He has never set the 100 lb Fisherman from his bow. That anchor is used when there is time to prepare, not in the middle of the night when the stuff hits the fan. His main bower is large enough and secure enough when properly set to keep him, his wife, and his vessel safe and secure in most significant weather conditions.
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Old 15-02-2016, 14:22   #26
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

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.....................

But would say having two 15kg Vulcan's for example (for 66lb of anchor in tandem, or available for double anchoring flexibility), be better than having one 55lb anchor? Two 15kg Vulcan's are a fair bit more expensive than the 55lb Rocna, but the second one can be added a bit later, plus the 15kg Vulcan is a lot easier to handle than the 25kg anchor. If funds allow and I can manage the 55lb one ok, I might give that a try though.
Hi again. You might want to go back and reread that anchoring table sizing link I sent you. There's a long discussions about just this issue with one of the skippers who seemed to be way over sizing his main daily use anchor.

In his case, IIRC he was way oversizing even for a storm anchor.

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Excellent advice Jim. Completely agree.

..........................His main bower is large enough and secure enough when properly set to keep him, his wife, and his vessel safe and secure in most significant weather conditions.

Jim & Stephen are right.

Size it properly based on the conditions you expect (and some would say more, right?). But, the tables and the ranges of sizes for any given system do pretty much cover that, also discussed in the lined text. i.e., I have a 34 foot boat, but the tables are 30 or 36. Wind ranges vary, so extrapolate. You all remember that from high school, right?
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Old 15-02-2016, 18:01   #27
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

I feel like I am a billiard ball being gently nudged into the right pocket.

Good warning about the dangers in actually lifting a tandem setup to get out of Dodge fast. That's one to pass right by then.

Stu, apart from anything else, I completely missed that there was a Page 2 at that link! Doh!

I liked your approach of going with the working anchor numbers of the next size up boat, and then balancing the system round that. This fitted in brilliantly with Mantus sizing recommendations, where the 20kg (I'd gone past that weight, looking at 25kg anchors straight from 15kg anchors) was conservatively recommended for the 35ft to 40ft boats as their working anchor, and the 20kg was ALSO the recommended severe storm anchor (for use in poor holding conditions at that, so well conservative), for the 30ft to 35ft boats.

So I've been busying away at the elements of a balanced system with the 20k anchor weight, and if anything the 5/16" HT chain is a touch too high (WLL 3,900), with the 5/8" nylon rode being nicely ballpark (and a windlass for that demands 5/16" chain anyway, so it's no contest), then with a 3/8" forged shackle holding things together.

Do you think I have gone in the billiard table pocket, or did I ricochet off the cush?

All you guys are too kind, thanks again.
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Old 15-02-2016, 18:36   #28
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

Actually it looks like a 7/16" forged shackle will fit 5/16" HT chain ok, so even better, given the main anchor will be all chain.
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Old 15-02-2016, 21:45   #29
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

My setup is a little "off" and open for critique if y'all wish.

Boat is 32' and around 13,500lb. loaded with a 25lb. Manson Supreme on 3/8" 3G all chain. Bridle is fat and short with the hook only hanging to the surface. No swivel. No windlass.

Rarely anchor in more than about 12' of water and always mud or sand so far. Almost never at a dock or marina.

Haven't dragged anchor, not even a little bit, since switching to this setup more than a year ago so around 400 nights so far.

Been some crazy winds lately. Had several 24-48 hour periods with constant winds around 25- 35 knots for the duration with gusts slightly higher. One event of note a few weeks ago was constant 45 knots for several hours with max gusts recorded at 78 knots by the local collage a mile from my location. Four foot breaking waves on the bow with a mile of fetch.

Several boats were changing location and everyone stayed up all nigh trying to limit the carnage from the unattended or derelict boats. At least three boats had an unwelcome guest hooked on their gear. Next day the unattended owners moved thier boats right back where they were and tossed the tiny anchor over and went home.

Any way, I stayed put and dodged one boat dragging by while holding my boat to port with the engine so I wouldn't swing into it. Had the gear buoyed and ready to toss and run but when I went forward (distant boat coming) the boat right by me started to move so too late. Should have moved away earlier before the storm but didn't.

So...

Anchor to small

Chain too big

Snubber, bridle to short

All could be true but luckily it has been working for me for a while now. Chain was a gift from a land bound cruiser, anchor purchased on port supply. Only about $300 investment. Lucky.
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Old 16-02-2016, 07:54   #30
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Re: Ground tackle specification overlap

Hi Four Winds. Sounds like things worked ok for the boat (and you!) with gusts up to 78mph! Wow! Glad no dragging boats hit yours.

Brilliant deal for $300 all in for your ground tackle too. I would never say a chain is too big if it is free chain (unless it's heavy enough to sink the boat).

A 'conservative' safety margin for poor holding conditions (like with the Mantus figures) looks to have a very big and positive effect with good holding conditions, which your experience with the 25lb Manton Supreme, to me anyway, is a really excellent insight into.

Given that I will (unavoidably) be anchoring in a wide variety of holding ground, and intend using a 20kg (44lb) anchor, your experience with the 26lb anchor, is a great reassurance, and really good to hear. I expect I'll end up on the receiving end of some quite extensive variations in wave height and frequency too, so will have to try and acquire a 'rule of thumb' pair of chain snubbers to maximise comfort (more so to minimise stresses on the boat than myself, but should benefit my own comfort too).

How comfortable do you reckon your snubber helped the boat to be in those conditions and wave heights? Diameter and extent of stretching could give some wonderful insights.
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