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Old 23-10-2017, 17:37   #46
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Re: Fishy anchoring situation

On the dual anchor comment, yes, I tried a stern and bow anchor the first time and the stern anchor was useless and merely fouled around the main anchor. The main anchor held despite this, and I didn't do that again.

I think I figured out who was fouling the anchors. There's a guy who owns a big lot with a bunch of AirBnB or VRBO houses, and he has what appears to be a vacation home on the lot as well. I was tipped off because I was heading back to that area as I was being seriously considered for the park operator position next year, and I noticed some jerk erected a fence right in the way of the trail leading to the place next to the park sign. While I'm sure there is another way around, you're standing there looking through a 5 foot tall wire fence at a trail that goes directly to the park and doesn't cross through anyone's yards, all there is is a bunch of water tanks for the houses on the lot.

It takes a special kind of a**hole to go to the extent of erecting a fence and blocking a (shorter) trail and forcing people to go around. Same special kind of a**hole who would foul an anchor because it was in the way of the view of his customers. Given rates up here, he was probably netting well over ten grand a weekend plus more in during the week in the summer. I don't have hard proof but given that my boat was pretty well in front of the view of those houses on that lot I think I have my culprit.

My boat is well maintained, was recently cleaned, and given the slope of the lot and height above water level it shouldn't have been a problem or blocking anyone's view.

And just to recap, because this thread got pretty long and sidetracked into a debate over anchor types:

First anchor set: waited for it to hold through three tides, boat was firmly in place for 9 days until I returned. Stern anchor was even fouled over the main anchor, main anchor was still holding. 7:1 scope, chain and rode. Light winds, max 10 kts.

Second anchor set: waited for it to hold through three tides, 2 and a half days later the boat was adrift. 7:1 scope, chain and rode. Light winds, max 10 kts.

Third anchor set: waited for it to hold through three tides, next morning boat was adrift. 7:1 scope, chain and rode. Practically no wind, max 3-5 kts.

All anchoring at a depth of approximately 40-50 ft. Sheltered cove.
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Old 23-10-2017, 17:58   #47
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Re: Fishy anchoring situation

This has been going on for almost 6 months and you still have not caught anyone playing with your anchor. Makes you think eh !
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Old 23-10-2017, 18:18   #48
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Re: Fishy anchoring situation

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This has been going on for almost 6 months and you still have not caught anyone playing with your anchor. Makes you think eh !
Thats because I moved the boat away from that place and tied up to a dock while I sit on the wait list.
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Old 23-10-2017, 18:41   #49
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Re: Fishy anchoring situation

Yep, I'd say you have a suspect. However, if you can't prove it, it didn't happen.

I wish you the best in your marina situation.
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Old 23-10-2017, 19:59   #50
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Re: Fishy anchoring situation

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Yep, I'd say you have a suspect. However, if you can't prove it, it didn't happen.
He could always burn the guys resort down on a hunch.
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Old 23-10-2017, 20:42   #51
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Re: Fishy anchoring situation

I have learned two things reading this insane thread.

First, I ALMOST totally wasted 15 minutes of my life I will never get back with the tinfoil hat brigade.

But I learned something useful. Fortress Anchors is represented (at least on this forum) by someone I would really NOT want to ever do business with...

That second anchor in our budget is definitely going to be something else.

If only he (she?) could have just acknowledged that every anchor has its pros and cons... but no...

It is totally obvious that ANY Danforth style anchor can have the chain foul on the stock and yank the anchor out of the bottom on a wide swing. It happens. Trying to deny it, just makes you look foolish, and as a consequence any other claims you might make become suspect as well.
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Old 24-10-2017, 06:57   #52
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Re: Fishy anchoring situation

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Originally Posted by billknny View Post
I have learned two things reading this insane thread.

First, I ALMOST totally wasted 15 minutes of my life I will never get back with the tinfoil hat brigade.

But I learned something useful. Fortress Anchors is represented (at least on this forum) by someone I would really NOT want to ever do business with...

That second anchor in our budget is definitely going to be something else.

If only he (she?) could have just acknowledged that every anchor has its pros and cons... but no...

It is totally obvious that ANY Danforth style anchor can have the chain foul on the stock and yank the anchor out of the bottom on a wide swing. It happens. Trying to deny it, just makes you look foolish, and as a consequence any other claims you might make become suspect as well.
Thank you for your comments, which I greatly appreciate. I never intended to deny the possibility that the chain can foul the anchor, only that it is highly unlikely if the anchor is buried deeply as it should be if it is properly and well-set.

Safe anchoring,
Brian
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Old 24-10-2017, 11:03   #53
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Re: Fishy anchoring situation

"It takes a special kind...of erecting a fence and blocking a (shorter) trail and forcing people to go around."

See now, here in the US we have 62 sets of different laws regarding "right of passage" and trespass statutes, plus the federal ones. If you don't know the property lines, and you don't know the governing laws....Maybe someone got tired of picking up hiker trash and just put up a fence. it can be that simple.

Which comes back to anchored boats in the water: same same. There's no obvious way to tell what actual laws apply, or what may be motivating someone. Makes it hard to tell if there's any there there.

The topology of how and why ropes and chains manage to knot and unknot themselves can be quite subtle and unintuitive. I've seen things securely clipped into lines (i.e. a safety harness clipped into a jack line) and you turn around and it is UNclipped. WTF? But it turns out that a simple clip, when rotated about the main line at the right angle, can trip itself and unclip very easily. The rest of the knotting/tying/releasing magic is often no more complicated, but equally hard to imagine if you haven't seen it happen.

No gremlins or evil neighbors needed.
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Old 24-10-2017, 19:12   #54
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Re: Fishy anchoring situation

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"It takes a special kind...of erecting a fence and blocking a (shorter) trail and forcing people to go around."

See now, here in the US we have 62 sets of different laws regarding "right of passage" and trespass statutes, plus the federal ones. If you don't know the property lines, and you don't know the governing laws....Maybe someone got tired of picking up hiker trash and just put up a fence. it can be that simple.
While I would not rather bore you with the munitae, I will explain and keep it brief. This rabbit trail is actually listed on Google Maps as a road. Not that you could even ride a bicycle down it. It is mostly used by residents so that their kids can play with other kids and go from house to house. The fact that it is 3 feet from a park sign is also a pretty strong signal of a special kind of a**hole. Bare in mind if the fence wasnt there you would be maybe 5 minutes from the park; while I can't vouch for every hiker, anyone who is willing to hike 3km isn't about to dump garbage when they are about to cross the finish line. There may have been a few rotten apples, but 2 miles in chances are any litterbugs litter is long gone.

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Which comes back to anchored boats in the water: same same. There's no obvious way to tell what actual laws apply, or what may be motivating someone. Makes it hard to tell if there's any there there.
In Canada the high tide marker is the start of federal land. The beach is provincial land. There is no way to purchase this land without a water lease federally and provincially. You cannot legally be trespassing by being even on the beach, let alone on the water.

There is a problem of completely derelict vessels washed ashore that nobody can get rid of due to laws. I know the laws. Sitting at anchor for 14 days is the right of navigation, for whatever reasonable purpose. Anchoring in a water lease (ie. marina) could get you into trouble, but they cannot deny you safe passage/safe harbour. Therefore, many with homeless boats weigh anchor and move the boat every 14 days.

You are barking up the wrong tree with this one, at least by Canadian law. I know nothing of US law on the water, so I couldn't make a comparison to whatever jurisdiction you may be familiar with.

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The topology of how and why ropes and chains manage to knot and unknot themselves can be quite subtle and unintuitive. I've seen things securely clipped into lines (i.e. a safety harness clipped into a jack line) and you turn around and it is UNclipped. WTF? But it turns out that a simple clip, when rotated about the main line at the right angle, can trip itself and unclip very easily. The rest of the knotting/tying/releasing magic is often no more complicated, but equally hard to imagine if you haven't seen it happen.

No gremlins or evil neighbors needed.
This is a very good holding, safe anchorage, even denoted on charts as a good anchorage. This is not a jumble of rocks or seaweed, this is mostly sand. A danforth or Fortress should hold no matter what, especially at 7:1 scope after close observation through 3 tides, and the harbour authority across the pond even told me so, in this anchorage, you should not drag.

While it is true I have no proof (and therefore cannot declare piracy) I think I have it figured out who is fouling.

The simple laws of physics dictate that if an anchor were to drag, it would drag across the bottom, correct? The boat was found 700M away from it's original anchoring spot with the anchor directly below the boat. Which means the anchor was pulled, then just dropped (not set) into a heap on the ocean floor.

That's not the way I anchor. I let out scope until it touches the bottom, back up a bit then snub it until it grabs, then let out more scope and am in full reverse when all my scope is out and the boat is definitely not moving.

There are no fasteners, carabiners, or even knots other than the one connected to the anchor, until it reaches the bow kleat. The boat was found with everything securely fastened from boat to anchor and chain in between.

Someone was pulling the anchor up. It is also quite remarkable that in light winds the anchor was getting fouled faster and faster, from never fouling at all down to under 12 hours on the third set. And you can bet I was taking extra extra extra special care to set it the third time, because I was missing work and panicking that maybe my boat would be adrift which would be an expensive misadventure.

This is not tin foil hat BS. This is lightning striking three times in the same spot.

Needless to say, but now whenever I tie up to the dock in that area for more than a night, I now use 7 lines. (Yes, 7). There's no way in hell that would go adrift. I keep it 4 ft from the dock with multiple bumpers just in case suspended between two fingers.
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Old 24-10-2017, 20:16   #55
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Re: Fishy anchoring situation

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Yep, I'd say you have a suspect. However, if you can't prove it, it didn't happen.

I wish you the best in your marina situation.
Water leases here are really hard to get, NIMBY rich people with waterfront property want to buy condos with private moorage attached to the house so it's hard to get and hard for marinas to expand.

Luckily we have a new government that might be more sympathetic, but they are a bit left wing and might not be much better.
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Old 25-10-2017, 04:17   #56
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Re: Fishy anchoring situation

+1

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I ALMOST totally wasted 15 minutes of my life I will never get back with the tinfoil hat brigade.
This is all paranoia in my humble opinion. There, I said the word. Why consider convoluted scenarios requiring ill human will and even more unlikely, actual nefarious action—yet somehow very inneficient action—to mess with your boat?

Most people with a bad dispostion towards you or your boat—if any—will be sitting grumbling in their coach but they won’t get up even if hell froze over, let allone zip across the anchorage in the middle of the night to move your boat a few stone throws around. At worst they would call the relevant authority or the neighbours and complain. Just my hunch from a few thousand miles away.

Anyhow, I’m only replying to point out the obvious:

First of all, your Fortress wasn’t the right anchor to use in that situation as many have already pointed out. Don’t need to rehash why. It did fail to reset rapidly or well enough, whatever scenario you contemplate. (The comments from the Fortress representative are outright misleading and inappropriate given that this subject is about safety where in the extreme case even lives could be at stake.)

Secondly, and this is what I haven’t seen anyone else in this thread point out before, at some point you mention a scope of 7:1. If you let more rode out than most other boaters in this high traffic area then it is very likely that others have anchored over it and tripped your anchor, especially in low wind tidal situations where your rode ends up in a big S-shape or other curve on the bottom and other boaters have no clue of where your anchor is. It might very well have sat downwind from your boat on many occasions.

See, no ill will required, very straightforward explanation(s). No need to waste time on stake outs or machiavelic thoughts. Just breathe and enjoy life. Also, it has not been my intention in any way to offend you with this post. I only wanted to point out the obvious to allow you to move on and I’m honestly glad for you that you found an alternative location and that you’re snuggly moored for the time being.
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Old 25-10-2017, 07:55   #57
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Re: Fishy anchoring situation

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(The comments from the Fortress representative are outright misleading and inappropriate given that this subject is about safety where in the extreme case even lives could be at stake.)
Thanks for your comments. For maximum safety, we have and always will recommend setting two anchors when a wind or tidal shift is expected since no anchor will dependably reset in those conditions 100% of the time.

Safe anchoring,
Brian
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Old 25-10-2017, 08:07   #58
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Re: Fishy anchoring situation

" This rabbit trail is actually listed on Google Maps as a road."
Right, what court will accept Gargoyle Maps as a legal source? None. Gargoyle is riddled with errors, and in case you didn't know it, cartographers are long known for intentionally putting trivial errors on their maps, in oder to detect when someone has copied them. Particularly errors about tiny streets that shouldn't inconvenience anyone, because they are so rarely used.
You'd need to find the local tax plat maps, issued by a government source, to find out if there is a public road there, as legally defined, or if it is otherwise owned. It may be public, or owned by a deed-restricted association that everyone has forgotten about, or a dozen other things. Google wouldn't know.

"There may have been a few rotten apples, but 2 miles in chances are any litterbugs litter is long gone." I've found trash heaps including big coolers and gallon mayonnaise jars, five miles in from the trailhead, thirty years ago.

Right of navigation? Sure, if you are actually IN TRANSIT and have a legitimate NEED to park there. That means the crew are hospitalized, the engine is waiting for spares, there's a hurricane or blizzard forecast... some real pressing NEED. Not just "I need to go back to work for a week." Sorry, but you need to dig all the way back to legal sources for these things, not just what you've heard or think is good.
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Old 25-10-2017, 09:10   #59
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Re: Fishy anchoring situation

2Big2Small said it in a nutshell in post #56.

Gotta love the backpedalling in Fortress post following ! lol
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Old 25-10-2017, 09:23   #60
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Re: Fishy anchoring situation

Tidal shifts require a multi-anchor plan. You simply can't set one anchor and leave and trust that it will reset every time; and whenever you reach the point of considering firearms to deal with a non-life threatening situation, it's time to avoid, and move on.
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