Fabricate spade anchor

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Mr B

There are a few of those,



Beat you death with ******** they have pulled out of books, Or Google, Etc,



Practically, They dont have a clue,



Its simple, If you cant make it your self, Buy it,

On the contrary, you can’t get any more “practical” than trying to understand how seemingly subtle changes can affect anchor performance and you can either learn that from listening and reading what others have learned from their own experience or from what successful anchor manufacturers R&D teams have learned, or you can pretend you can learn all that from just looking at an anchors outward appearance and your own limited firsthand experience (compared with all others combined) and pretend you have all the answers. But until you actually build and use an anchor that actually performs well in real world conditions and that’s verified by unbiased head to head comparison testing, you’re just thumping your own chest and slinging b*******, I mean making unverified claims about what you can do. Rather than bragging on the Internet, why don’t you build a superior anchor and loan it to SV Panope or some other unbiased person and let them do your bragging for you,...or not.

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

On the contrary, you can’t get any more “practical” than trying to understand how seemingly subtle changes can affect anchor performance and you can either learn that from listening and reading what others have learned from their own experience or from what successful anchor manufacturers R&D teams have learned, or you can pretend you can learn all that from just looking at an anchors outward appearance and your own limited firsthand experience (compared with all others combined) and pretend you have all the answers. But until you actually build and use an anchor that actually performs well in real world conditions and that’s verified by unbiased head to head comparison testing, you’re just thumping your own chest and slinging b*******, I mean making unverified claims about what you can do. Rather than bragging on the Internet, why don’t you build a superior anchor and loan it to SV Panope or some other unbiased person and let them do your bragging for you,...or not.

Try putting 55 years of practical experience in all facets of Engineering into a few lines on an internet forum,
It has nothing to do with beating your own chest,

[jtsailjt]

In your description of how you built 3 anchors and then took the best one and then had to modify that to make the tip heavier so it would dig in, it sounds much like the process I told Simi he’d likely have to go through so I’m not sure why you have an issue with it. You didn’t just engineer an anchor and make it and have it work just as you hoped it would. You started with what others have designed and then still had to do a pretty fair amount of trial and error to hopefully get it right. So even with your 55 years of engineering, you’re pretty much living proof that what I told Simi was correct. You’re unlikely to get it right on your first or second or third or....try. Your anchor looks impressive but now it would be interesting to see it go head to head with other new gen anchors to see how effective it actually is in real world conditions. Your period of trial and error, I mean engineering, may not be over.

[Mr B]

Nothing ever made by mankind ever worked the first time,

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Mr B

Nothing ever made by mankind ever worked the first time,

And that’s part of the reason why it’s almost always cheaper to buy an existing product that already has the kinks worked out of it even if you have the skillset and resources to painstakingly duplicate the work others have already done that you could purchase for pennies on the dollar. You and Simi have been talking like your vast engineering and welding experience would allow you to just weld up a great anchor on your or his first try. It’s good to see that at least one of you understands that’s usually not how it works in the real world. I wonder how long it will take for Simi to come to that same realization?

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

you clearly dont have the skillset to do it.
Those that can do
Those that can't stamp their feet and rubbish those that can on internet forums.

Originally Posted by Mr B

There are a few of those,
Beat you death with ******** they have pulled out of books, Or Google, Etc,
Practically, They dont have a clue,
Its simple, If you cant make it your self, Buy it,

You guys seem really sensitive to reasonable questions and suggestions. Imagined foot-stomping and imagined death-beatings are funny hyperbole, I'll give you that. However, you may have missed the part where many of us want you to succeed with your anchor projects and hope you can post your results.

There are apparently welders here who learned a bit of engineering out of practicality, and there are engineers here (count me) who learned a bit of welding and machining out of practicality. Probably all of us are in the do-it-yourself camp at various levels, and a discussion of design and fabrication trade-offs should be helpful to everyone. It's often good to ignore the knee-jerk nay-sayers, but don't confuse life and limb concerns with the knee-jerkers.

I taught myself TIG welding in order to create beer brewing vessels. Yeah, I could have purchased fermentation tanks for a lot more money, but DIY people just have to do it. I do understand this.

During my years in aerospace, I learned that the engineers and the machinists were always separated. White-collar vs blue-collar... ties vs overalls. I found this to be very unhelpful at times, as each side disparaged the other in some childish tradition. "book smarts" vs "practical experience", "thinkers" vs "doers", etc. Our two groups came together to create man-rated hardware that sent humans into space, so it can work...but... those of us who were the crossover types like me (degreed engineer/amatuer machinist) were in the minority. This minority was all about DIY, and they were the most fun to consult with when it came to side projects.

I find this forum very rich with such experience and knowledge. If you sort through the various posts without getting too excited or insulted, you might find some food for thought among the "rubbish". If you share your DIY efforts, you just might also find that you have some admirers on here.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

And that’s part of the reason why it’s almost always cheaper to buy an existing product that already has the kinks worked out of it even if you have the skillset and resources to painstakingly duplicate the work others have already done that you could purchase for pennies on the dollar. You and Simi have been talking like your vast engineering and welding experience would allow you to just weld up a great anchor on your or his first try. It’s good to see that at least one of you understands that’s usually not how it works in the real world. I wonder how long it will take for Simi to come to that same realization?

That's the thing
If I took an anchor that I already have that works brilliantly first time every time again and again and painstakingly duplicate it how can it not work?

(If i do them they won't be an exact same same, the roll bar will be bolt on, the shank will be slot and bolt same way as others have done and the curved fluke would be pressed rather than rolled but dimensions and material will remain the same.)

And please show me this 175 to 200lb new gen anchor I can buy for pennies on the dollar, I'll buy 3 now.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

That's the thing

If I took an anchor that I already have that works brilliantly first time every time again and again and painstakingly duplicate it how can it not work?



(If i do them they won't be an exact same same, the roll bar will be bolt on, the shank will be slot and bolt same way as others have done and the curved fluke would be pressed rather than rolled but dimensions and material will remain the same.)



And please show me this 175 to 200lb new gen anchor I can buy for pennies on the dollar, I'll buy 3 now.

I would worry what the slot in the shank might do to the shanks structural integrity but I suppose you could always replace it if it bends. Also, how will pressing rather than rolling high strength steel for the flukes affect their performance under load?

My mention to pennies on the dollar was in reference to the cost of R&D you are contributing to when you buy their product. When that cost is spread out over many thousands of identical items sold, each customer gets all the benefit for just a small amount of money. But you seem to want to get the benefit of their R&D for free by copying their work. But what you consider to be subtle changes may or may not become significant under actual use. Good luck to you but it seems to me you are going to a lot of trouble and possibly putting your boat at risk just to save a few $$. Penny wise and pound foolish. In the past, supposedly good anchors have failed in lots of ways that were not intended to be possible by their manufacturer, but yet they failed. I want everything last detail about my anchor to have been proven over time to work as intended. When I consider what’s at stake I’m very happy to make my small contribution to all the engineering and modifications and lessons learned that resulted in the reliable product at the end of my anchor chain.

[Jim Cate]

FWIW, I don't remember hearing about any anchor shanks actually failing. Bending, yes, usually when the anchor was fouled in rocks etc, but not actually parting, setting the boat free.

And re the slot in the Supreme's shank... yes, the shank would be stronger without it, but surely the engineering for the anchor's specs took that into account during the design.

And re minor differences in the shape, etc, making significant changes in performance: friends of ours with a Rafiki 37 bought a 45 lb Supreme after we gave glowing reports of our results with our 60 lb. It simply would not work for them, failing to set many times and never supplying good holding. After repeated attempts, they reverted to their trusty CQR and returned the anchor to the vendor. When set on the floor next to other examples, the tip didn't achieve the same angle of attack... a visible but minor difference. In their place, I would have exchanged the anchor for a different one, but they were about to go off to New Cal and were kinda spooked. This was several years ago,and they are still happy with their old anchor. My point is that yes, small differences in shape, etc, can make larger differences in performance... I think!

Jim