Experience with Rocna Vulcan

[kas_1611]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Can you tell how a 33kg Vulcan would compare to a 33kg (or thereabouts) Delta? 33 to 16 seems like apples and oranges...

-Chris

Chris,

Difficult to compare the 2 anchors as they are totally different designs, not just different weights.

Lewmar who manufacture the Delta, suggest in their tables that 16kg is big enough for a 40ft yacht. Rocna on the other hand suggest 20 to 25kg for a 12m (40ft) yacht weighing in at 10 to 18 tonnes. As we displace 11.5 tonnes I could have gone with the 25kg Vulcan.

I decided to go bigger based on the fact that we had experienced winds of over 45kts and dragged with the Delta twice. It is a fact of sailing in Croatia that the "dirty Bura" can come literally out of nowhere and hit you with storm force winds from nothing so I wanted to be sure that my bower anchor would hold us in a full on storm so I went got the 33kg Vulcan over the 25kg version.

In my humble opinion the original 16kg Delta was not big enough for our 40ft for anything above a lunch anchor although it did hold us secure in 25kts a couple of times.

Keiron

[Spade Anchor]

Originally Posted by skipgundlach

Clips, and the sig line omitted, and not visible while I'm writing, but...

Would you comment on the similarities and differences between the Spade design and the Vulcan? To me, they look similar.

My chief beef with my Rocna is its propensity, after the nearly ubiquitous requirement of cleaning - in our case, by motoring, as it would take hours by our deckwash - to mount point first, putting incredible strain on the roller. I usually have to use a boathook to rotate it into point-aft, where it comes up easily on our cantilever setup.

It seems as though this shank design would eliminate that propensity, and, had I had one of either yours (unaffordable at the time) or the Vulcan, might not have had to redesign our pulpit for the roll bar and for the cantiliver effect. The Rocna self-launches just fine, but retrieval is a pain on anything other than a clean retrieval, which is extremely rare, and in my experience so far, only found in some all-sand bottoms.

So, comment, if you would, on the similarities and differences in the Vulcan and Spade, and address retrieval/stowage?

Thanks.

The similarities are: 1.concave fluke. 2. Vulcan has similar ear/wings on the outside edge of the fluke that help eliminated its old versions need for a roll bar.3. As well as an attempt at a ballasted tip. 4. Overall appearance is similar to our Spade.

The differences are: 1. the Vulcan is 16 years behind us in design. They are just now developing what we have been doing for over 16 years. The Vulcan design will have more changes to come. 2. We have a lead ballast tip that focuses over 50% of the anchors weight on the tip. It is also a true ballast tip that is self righting. 3. The Spade has a shank that is designed/balanced to focus weight once again on the cutting edge tip. 4. We used physics to design the fluke for maximum holding power, our fluke has more of deeper concave surface as well as a broader surface for more holding power once set. 5. We are the original designed around safety,not an imitation that is designed around cost. 6. We have never had an issue with the quality of our steel.

As far as retrieval and storage. The Spade is easily stored as it comes apart in 2 pieces held together with an old world wood working mortise and tenon joint and a non-load bearing bolt. For retrieval, the Spade has over 50% of the weight in the tip so it comes up point down. We also have an inexpensive bow roller kit that holds perfectly, and takes only one bolt to connect to your current set up. That is only if you have an issue with the way it sets on your current set up.

[Boatguy30]

Please send me a PM, with cash and carry price for A80 and A100. my Rocna was slightly damaged in shipping and eligible for return.

[skipgundlach]

Originally Posted by Spade Anchor

(snark removed)

As far as retrieval and storage. The Spade is easily stored as it comes apart in 2 pieces held together with an old world wood working mortise and tenon joint and a non-load bearing bolt. For retrieval, the Spade has over 50% of the weight in the tip so it comes up point down. We also have an inexpensive bow roller kit that holds perfectly, and takes only one bolt to connect to your current set up. That is only if you have an issue with the way it sets on your current set up.

I'd been confused about terminology. I thought stowage was ready-to-use placement while under way.

My Fortress had its storage in a bag in the lazarette, by comparison. Its construction would make it difficult to retrieve in our setup, as the flukes would be difficult. It's thus a kedge or spare for exigencies, easy to deploy with a dinghy. I use the bag with 50' of chain and 200' of 1" MegaBraid as rode. Or, would, as I've never had to, yet.

I went to a cantilever setup to deal with the straight (relatively) shank of the Rocna, minimizing the stress of the over-center pull which I'd experienced with the Delta which became my secondary, when I bought the 33KG Rocna.

I'd been lusting after a Spade for years, not being able to afford one, and finally gave up and got the roll-bar version of the Rocna, selling my 75# CQR as being virtually useless.

I like the disassemble possibility, but, for my current setup, what attracted me to this discussion, and reminded me of the Spade, was the shank shape. My impression is that it would not tend toward tip-forward retrieval, even if it were that way when presented to the roller. The roll-bar Rocna, on the other hand, inevitably presents that way when rinsed under way, and will not self-adjust to a 'friendly' point-stern attitude.

I =may= replace my perfectly good (as far as it goes) 55# Delta with either a Spade or Vulcan, as I'm pretty sure either would do better in nearly any circumstance, as 'good' as the Delta is.

Thanks for the elucidation. I've been a fan of Spades for many years.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

Chris,

Difficult to compare the 2 anchors as they are totally different designs, not just different weights.

Lewmar who manufacture the Delta, suggest in their tables that 16kg is big enough for a 40ft yacht. Rocna on the other hand suggest 20 to 25kg for a 12m (40ft) yacht weighing in at 10 to 18 tonnes. As we displace 11.5 tonnes I could have gone with the 25kg Vulcan.

I decided to go bigger based on the fact that we had experienced winds of over 45kts and dragged with the Delta twice. It is a fact of sailing in Croatia that the "dirty Bura" can come literally out of nowhere and hit you with storm force winds from nothing so I wanted to be sure that my bower anchor would hold us in a full on storm so I went got the 33kg Vulcan over the 25kg version.

In my humble opinion the original 16kg Delta was not big enough for our 40ft for anything above a lunch anchor although it did hold us secure in 25kts a couple of times.

Keiron

Wouldn't mind seeing a comparison of those different designs using anchors of roughly the same weight.

Without regard to Lewmar's recommendation, I'd assume that if it dragged it wasn't big enough. I don't think that necessarily implies the design was at fault. (Although it may be, which is why an equal comparison would have seemed useful.)

-Chris

[kas_1611]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Wouldn't mind seeing a comparison of those different designs using anchors of roughly the same weight.

Without regard to Lewmar's recommendation, I'd assume that if it dragged it wasn't big enough. I don't think that necessarily implies the design was at fault. (Although it may be, which is why an equal comparison would have seemed useful.)

-Chris

Chris,

Not something I am in a position to really do but if you want to see the performance of various anchors setting under real world conditions then check out Noelex's excellent thread. He and his mermaid have been photographing their own and other people's anchors in various substrates and sharing them with the collective. He and others have captured Deltas of various sizes along with CQR's, Brittany, Danforth, Bruce, Mantus, Rocna, Ultra, Vulcans and others to share how our trusty lumps actually behave below the surface (or not as the case maybe)

Photos of Anchors Setting

Keiron

[skipgundlach]

Never an anchor maven, I still try/ied to learn as much as I could about them, and how to best equip our boat.

Our boat, a Morgan 461, had two - one, a knockoff, and the other, the real deal, 45# CQR when we got it. Over time, we've now got a 55 Delta and 33Kg Rocna.

After I'd already bought it, I saw that Rocna strongly advised against oversizing; we're certainly oversized, and perhaps stressing our setup, particularly the windlass, which I reinforced to take a long lever instead of just the base on the twist-forward impulse.

We were on the cusp of the next sized Spade when we were seriously considering that, through a distributor of the time, Glenn Ashmore, who I knew from rec.boats.cruising, and some direct personal involvement in our boat when we'd just bought it and were in the initial refit.

At that time, it was seriously out of our budget, and when he stopped handling them, I sort of lost sight of Spades.

So, while I can't imagine we'd be immediate candidates, if I could get some other cruiser to buy my Rocna for what it would cost me to get the proper Spade, I might well do just that. The question is, however, what size I should have. Weight isn't much considered in comparison to surface area in Spades, and the weights don't seem to correlate to size when compared to other similar designs. Worse, the length of boats in their charts doesn't remotely correlate to the weight we have.

Our 45'LOD boat is very heavy compared to design weight; the last time in the slings was 44k, and our full bimini/enclosure and substantial arch adds to the windage. What would be the proper anchor for our boat, assuming that, as now, we nearly never (in fact, never, but I accept that we might) use our secondary anchor, and what would I spend to achieve that? I'm assuming that it might be a smaller/less heavy anchor than what I have now.

I have no reservations about the Spade behaving substantially as our Rocna does, so - having already made the mistake of oversizing - perhaps someone would leap at the chance to get our Rocna for as much or more than it would cost for the 'proper' sized Spade for our boat.

What is Spade's position on 'oversizing'? And, for that matter, what would be the appropriate anchor, were it a spade? (I infer from Rocna that I should have had two sizes smaller; what we have absolutely holds us, but at a potential cost, beyond what I had to spend to accommodate that heavier weight, in later stress on the bow and hardware.)

Great discussion...

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
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[thinwater]

Originally Posted by skipgundlach

...After I'd already bought it, I saw that Rocna strongly advised against oversizing; we're certainly oversized, and perhaps stressing our setup, particularly the windlass, which I reinforced to take a long lever instead of just the base on the twist-forward impulse.

I wouldn't say they warn against over sizing. They warn that the gear must match the anchor; anytime you change the size of the hook, there is a good chance that the windlass and perhaps bowsprit was built for something less. The chain and rode, you hope, was sized for the boat, and the anchor size shouldn't change that.

Speaking of bowsprits, I never fail to be amazed by the number of people that anchor from the bowsprit on all chain instead of a snubber from bow cleats, believing this cantilevered bit of wood and metal was designed for tons of pressure, when the boat bounces on waves and the chain snaps tight. I wonder how they would cringe I suggested I was going to lift the back of my car with it, since surely it would bend or break before the tires came up. Yes, some bowsprits are built for that, but most are not.

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

Please send me a PM, with cash and carry price for A80 and A100. my Rocna was slightly damaged in shipping and eligible for return.

Boatguy, I sold my A80 years ago because it had difficulty setting in hard packed bottom. My boat dragged while we were away, and might have been damaged if not for a nearby "Good Samaritan".

The triangular shaped weighted tip (broad profile) in combination with the light weight for the surface area are what I believe were the reason. If you expect to have to anchor in such conditions- going with aluminum version is a mistake IMHO. Get the steel version.

I believe once set the S80 and A80 would have similar holding- but the issue is ability to penetrate the bottom. Once set, the Spade is a great anchor.

As a fellow multihull guy I sympathize with your goal of light weight but I've gotten over it when it comes to an anchor.

[colemj]

I bet you sold an A100 and not an A80

Mark

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by colemj

I bet you sold an A100 and not an A80

Mark

LOL
Excercise, healthy diet, and meditation-- and the mind still declines.

[TJ D]

Hello,

A bit of real world experience here.

We're long-time Rocna lovers, but our new boat can't take a roll bar thanks to a retractable sprit. So, we were looking at a Spade when Rocna introduced their shameless copy... (Just kidding, Rocna-sort of)

Really, the only reason that we went with the Rocna is the one part construction. Our anchor lives on the bow full time, so being able to take it apart doesn't really matter to us. I know that the bolt in a spade isn't load bearing, but I just couldn't get past seeing it as a weakness in the design. (I realize that this is entirely my opinion and probably unwarranted, but it's how I feel about it)

We are using the 33kg anchor. Our boat is 55', but only weights 24,000 lbs dry, maybe 27,000 in cruising trim.

We don't have a ton of anchoring in with it, but we did spend the summer in Newfoundland, where strong winds and big, sudden shifts are the norm, especially up in the Fjords.

To this point, it's been rock-solid. It sets fast and has held fine. We have not been anchored in anything above force 7 with it, so I have no idea how it'll do. I'm thinking that it'll be just fine.

Yes, it excavates a big pile of bottom when it comes up, but that's really not a bother for us. We just dangle it for a bit and run ahead slowly. To this point, it has always self launched and has stowed on the roller without touching it.

I like it so far.

Good sailing, TJ

[skipgundlach]

Originally Posted by TJ D

Hello,


(clip)

Yes, it excavates a big pile of bottom when it comes up, but that's really not a bother for us. We just dangle it for a bit and run ahead slowly. To this point, it has always self launched and has stowed on the roller without touching it.

I like it so far.

Good sailing, TJ

We do the same rinse bit, but the roll-bar version resolutely stays in that attitude (tip forward) despite our having a swivel, even with a pinned (teeter-totter fulcrum) cantilever first-stage (the second is what lifts the front, after the shank gets that high) roller. If I don't manually turn it, the over-center force on that very hard roller is sufficient to cut it and (has, but not catastrophically yet) bend the 5/8" bolt.

It's a PITA, and the roll bar necessitated the cantiliver, too, to clear our cage. I wish I'd known about the Vulcan then, as it appears that the right/comparable sized Vulcan is 1/3 to 1/2 less than a Spade, which I couldn't - and probably still can't, unless something very much smaller is appropriate to our boat - afford, and I wouldn't have that nuisance...

[kas_1611]

As interesting as it is to hear about the Spade anchor, which I did look at but decided against, isn't this a thread about people's experiences with the Rocna Vulcan anchor?

Can we therefore keep it on thread and concentrate on the Vulcan please

Keiron

[skipgundlach]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

As interesting as it is to hear about the Spade anchor, which I did look at but decided against, isn't this a thread about people's experiences with the Rocna Vulcan anchor?

Can we therefore keep it on thread and concentrate on the Vulcan please

Keiron

It seems as though we are - references to Spade are only in their similarities, seems to me.

And, if you didn't already know, there is NO anchor thread which will not wander from the OP's post ☺