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Old 01-12-2006, 10:20   #31
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I can see an anchor ball from a mile or two off with the binocs, and the warp from a hundred yards or so if I'm approaching from the beam or above.

Union Bay (Lake Washington/ship canal in Seattle, Washington state, USA) has been the site of more anchored-boat collisions than any small body of water should ever have, and the home of my previous yacht club. A few years back 2 of 3 family members were killed when their small sailboat was rammed by a motorboat while anchored without a ball. During my years in the club I cannot remember a single one in which there was not at least one accident in the bay involving an anchored vessel (other than the dredged channel the depths seldom exceed 6-7m, adjacent to the University of Washington stadium, so it is a popular anchorage during the local boating festivals and football games.)

Most likely a ball would not have made a difference in the accident I mentioned, but it was raised during the court case against the owner (drunk at the time) and the operator (drunk at the time) of the motor vessel.

Oh, and the radar-reflector-painted-black collapses flat. The one I had was only hoisted for daytime anchoring; I had another permanently rigged on the backstay (PO, and I never got around to moving it to the spreader.)
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Old 01-12-2006, 12:43   #32
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you need a good anchor :0)..

Not everybody has a good anchor and some models are prone to drag..
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Old 01-12-2006, 20:28   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swagman
we never used either in Oz (nor would I still as you'd feel a bit like a burk)
Why John, would you feel like a burk(sic) for following the rules? The anchor cable is not always obvious - especially if coming up from the opposite side from which the anchor lays. Similarly, it is not always so obvious when a vessel is motorsailing - smoke can be a generator or a stove. Not clearly indicating what you're doing when there are laws that make it so easy is piss poor seamanship, imho.

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Old 02-12-2006, 17:54   #34
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Similarly, it is not always so obvious when a vessel is motorsailing - smoke can be a generator or a stove. Not clearly indicating what you're doing when there are laws that make it so easy is piss poor seamanship, imho.

Kevin
yes, and.....


The cone, apex down is not signifying anything other then the 'change in class' of the vessel. In other words, it is saying "even if my sail is up, I am not a sailboat under the rules". I believe that the requirement to show the shape comes from the fact that it can be nearly impossible to determine if a sailboat is using her auxillury without some kind of additional visual clue. Really, it is much more of an issue for larger vessels trying to figure out who is burdened.... which is why it is only a requirement for vessels 20 meters and over.
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Old 03-12-2006, 00:47   #35
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Piss poor? Is it worth getting so personal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman
Why John, would you feel like a burk(sic) for following the rules? The anchor cable is not always obvious - especially if coming up from the opposite side from which the anchor lays. Similarly, it is not always so obvious when a vessel is motorsailing - smoke can be a generator or a stove. Not clearly indicating what you're doing when there are laws that make it so easy is piss poor seamanship, imho.

Kevin
With respect, I'd feel like a burk if 99% of those around me did not know what I was doing and thought me strange, if no other similar vessels bothered to comply either, and if the local authorities equally did not enforce such regulations with sail yachts.

The point I wished ot get over is that a shape in ones rigging is perhaps less visible than other more relative indicators - like being stationery, like having an anchor down. And I prefer to rely on those indicators than a shape hoisted in the sky.

Come up astern on a yacht at anchor - and you'd possibly not see the chain or the shape anyway......

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Old 03-12-2006, 07:59   #36
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Burks...

::shrug:: By that definition we're all burks anyway; we sail.

Safety and security is developing the habits which improve or insure the safety and security of our vessels. Keeping a deck log is a good example. It instills the habit of checking the horizon, and writing down details which help out in navigation, both of which in turn reduce your risks of collision and accident. But far too few of us do it consistently. ::raises hand::

The habit of attending to the details of anchoring may keep your boat from dragging, or being rammed. Maybe more importantly, if you travel offshore someday having nurtured the eccentric (in your home waters) habit of raising the cone could save yourself a fine and hassle with foreign authorities who enforce this international obligation on boaters.
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Old 03-12-2006, 12:46   #37
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I'd broadly agree, but IMHO habits are only worth developing if they are good habits, and when 95% of the yachts in the world do not use an anchor shape - I think its a good habit to check for other signs of movement and not rely on a black ball.

And errrm, it is a ball and not a cone.

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Old 03-12-2006, 13:53   #38
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Nothing personal John - if 95% of the yachtie set don't use the anchor ball or motoring cone, then 95% are practising piss-poor seamanship - the question is why would you join the legions of the ignorant, when you so obviously know better?

Respectfully,

Kevin
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Old 03-12-2006, 14:18   #39
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Quote:
Not everybody has a good anchor and some models are prone to drag..
Displaying a black ball while dragging might be construed as a violation I suppose.

"Honest your Honer he was displaying a black ball and I assumed he was achored."

Still a good idea to have one hoisted.
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Old 03-12-2006, 15:17   #40
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Maybe....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman
Nothing personal John - if 95% of the yachtie set don't use the anchor ball or motoring cone, then 95% are practising piss-poor seamanship - the question is why would you join the legions of the ignorant, when you so obviously know better?

Respectfully,

Kevin
...it's because whilst most rules and regulations make good sense and are therefore worth following - some are not so good and do not deserve to be followed slavishly.

In my opinion, too many rules and regulations applied to people often lead to the less important ones being focussed on, and the most important ones being not having the resources applied.........

Sailing IMHO, is already over-regulated in several aspects, and sadly under-regulated in others.

As an example, here in the EU have recently been regulated to produce a passage plan before we leave any port.

Yup, if you want to chug over to an island 3 miles away and tie up for a social, if you do not draft up such a plan and if you are then stopped and can't produce one - apparently you've broken the law.

Good seamanship to follow the regulations on that new piece of officialdom? Tosh. And the maritime authorities appear to agree - as I've not heard of any prosecutions since the law came in.

But it is the law. Ergo bad-seamanship to ignore it? I don't think so.

A strobe light on top of your mast is totally illegal. But tell that to a long distant cruiser in big seas when his energy is low - maybe the reason so many are fitted. Who is in the wrong....the law, or the person who chooses to ignore it?

Same same, IMHO, with anchor balls.

I'll hoist one if I am in a country where I suspect I may be fined for not doing so - and if a motoring skipper chose to ram me - I'd not be expecting the small black shape to do much to stop him!

Fortunately in most countries, the authorities treat the ball shape regulation in the same way most sailors do - they ignore it. In doing so - they gain more time to do more important things. That's good judgement and it actually wins my vote.

I'm happy to be in the majority on this, and I'm hoping in 20 years time, the national authorities will be able to liaise with the international authorities and see the sense in enforcing other regulations and removing less vital ones like these. But such things will take 40 years.

But if y'all keep using them then in 40 years time they'll be saying they can't remove the law as y'all so obviously like hoisting them up..........

OK?

JOHN
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Old 03-12-2006, 16:30   #41
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::shrug::

In a certain country the coast guard is no longer mandated to monitor 16, and by policy does not provide rescue services where commercial services exist to provide them. They're busy dealing with commercial paperwork and services. Those services make money sense for them, and their country.

Good judgement call! I applaud them.

But it doesn't help a damn with the safety and security of my vessel, which is what the international regs are doing. Following the regs costs me little or nothing. Not following them could cost me my boat, or the insurance payment for its loss/damage.
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Old 03-12-2006, 17:21   #42
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Just to clear things up

Quote:
Originally Posted by swagman
And errrm, it is a ball and not a cone.

Cheers
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John,

The cone, apex down, that I was refering to is the shape for a sailboat using it's motor. This was refered to earlier in the thread, as another dayshape who's utility was drawn into question.

Here is a good link.

Quote:
From link above;

Sailing Vessels Under Power (Machinery)
During the day, vessels under sail also being propelled by machinery, must exhibit forward, where best seen, a black conical shape with the apex pointing down. (Figure 10)
EXCEPTION: If your vessel is less than 39.4 feet/12 meters in length, then it is not required to display the shape in Inland Waters.

REMINDER: If you are operating your sail vessel at night using machinery or sail and machinery, then your vessel must display lights required for a power-driven vessel. (See figures 1 or 2)
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Old 04-12-2006, 05:58   #43
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John,

I feel you are probably overstating the passage plan requirements. SOLAS requirements put upon the state, the requirement to rescue yachties in distress, so it's certainly reasonable to expect them to formalize that requirement, which iirc could be simply informing some competent person where you are going and the expected duration of your trip. That way if you run into a spot of trouble on your picnic, the coast guard can be notified early enough to make it a 'rescue' mission and not a 'recovery' mission. Not much different than what is expected (legally) from recreational pilots, and (through common-sense) from hikers. The rule is there to save your bacon.
As with most rules, 95% of them are not really enforced, but that doesn't mean they should be removed from the books. The anchor ball and the motoring cone do serve a purpose, even if it is only to confirm what is obvious. They are hardly onerous rules, and if it ensures only that you're in the right in a legal case, or when settling an insurance claim, then it is worth it to comply.
btw - a strobe light is not illegal per se, except in those jurisdictions where it's considered a distress signal. The use of additional lights is only prohibited where they can be confused with lights in the rules, or impede the visibility of them.

Kevin
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Old 04-12-2006, 09:22   #44
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Remember that the Rules were not written by seamen but by lawyers so that they can decide who is more to blame when collisons occur - they don't always make sense but thats what they are
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Old 04-12-2006, 12:03   #45
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Peace

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