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Old 23-02-2008, 12:52   #1
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Chains Under Different Standards

are offered here in Europe:

DIN 766
ISO 818
HT (High-Test)

what to choose for ~300' 10mm (3/8") all-chain rode ?
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Old 23-02-2008, 13:19   #2
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I chose 400' of 3/8' ACCO G4
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Old 23-02-2008, 14:45   #3
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OK I got the point of ISO818 - not considering anymore
so more specifically - any difference between DIN766 & HT-G4 in strength ?
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Old 23-02-2008, 20:24   #4
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DIN766/A and EN818-3 (what you're calling ISO818) have 3 major differances. One is the physical size of each link, on a 10mm this is 2mm per link length. The other is the EN818-3 is 25% stronger than the DIN766/A (generally). The 3rd is the DIN766/A has far higher calibration than the EN.

Din766/A 10mm has a tolerance of +2.5/-0.5mm per 11 links where the EN has +/-1mm per link.

But saying that some EU manufacturers are uprating their DIN766/A chains to the same loads at the EN. The Maggi Group is one and I hear Marit and Devane (France) are close to doing the same. The EN818-3 is a Grade M or what was called Grade 40 (and still is in the US).

Acco HT or G4 or G40 or HTG4 are all the same chain. It is a Grade M just like the EN818-3. The biggest difference is again the physical measurements of each link. The US are still imperial.

A 10mm DIN/766 and a 10mm EN and a 3/8" US G4 are all different in physical sizing. So pick the one that fits your winch or carnage maybe the outcome of fitting a new chain.

Notes:
The US sizing is peculiar to the US only as a rule and not that easy to fit outside of it often. That maybe a consideration if venturing far a field.

A US made G40 and a EU made G40 will break at the same time even though the US WLL are a lot higher. The US runs smaller safety margins than the more commonly used 4 to 1. Break of a 10mm G40 is 6400kg, there abouts. On a DIN it is 5000kg.

They use made H-T, which stands for 'High Test' not high tensile, means it has had an elevated WLL, see comment directly above. It's basically a cunning marketing phrase.

A US or EU or Aussie or Sth African made G40 will break far beyond an Asian made G40. That's only because most Asian made chain is crap and not trustable. If you don't agree with that just stand in my shoes for a few weeks (sometimes only 1 day will do it) and you will change your mind.

'ISO' is not a standard, it is a bunch of people who set and maintain the standards. Many winch companies are using the term ISO these days quite incorrectly.

So if you are in the US and planning on staying close go with the Acco/pearson G40. If in the EU and planning on going further you are better off going with a DIN or EN as it is far easier to replace around the world if you have too. Also the EU made is generally a lot cheaper.

If any where in the world and planning on using the chain for anchoring make sure you are buying what you think you are, ask for a Test Certificate. If it doesn't clearly state the country of manufacture in a way you believe don't buy it. If it doesn't have a Test Cert don't buy it. ALL good manufacturers have believable Certs, the shop might not have a copy but should be able to get one faxed over reasonably quickly.

DIN766/A is not the same as DIN766/B or /C just as EN818-3 is not the same as EN818-1 or -2. Physical sizing is just one difference.

All of the above applies to well made quality chains. We don't regard asian made as that. It is getting better (well some is) but generally it is still crap, not reliable, a lot weaker and a lot softer (it will stretch easily) than the good stuff.

Don't buy on price alone, that is no indication of what the chain is like.

Buy what fits your winch.

Have fun
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Old 23-02-2008, 21:20   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMac View Post
But saying that some EU manufacturers are uprating their DIN766/A chains to the same loads at the EN. The Maggi Group is one and I hear Marit and Devane (France) are close to doing the same. The EN818-3 is a Grade M or what was called Grade 40 (and still is in the US).

GMAC:

Do you have any infor on the quality of Mc Kinnon Grade 50 Chain out of South Africa? How would it rate with the Euro chains?

Keegan
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Old 23-02-2008, 22:08   #6
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McKinnon is a good big outfit and makes chains alsort of places. PWB in Aussies is/was owned by them. No Sth African made chains I've seen have been any better or worse than any EU or US made.

Grade 50 (P) as an anchor chain? Unless you're really pushing boat size verses weight in bow carrying ability I can't see any point really. It would have pros and cons like most others. This is as higher grade as I'd use in an anchoring system. It will stretch 'a bit' so can handle 'a bit' of shock leaving traces you can see, fingers crossed and be stronger than anything it is attached to. Unlike a G70 which is basically 'shock, snap, all over rover' and in about the same time frame it took you to read it.
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Old 24-02-2008, 01:31   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMac View Post
McKinnon is a good big outfit and makes chains alsort of places. PWB in Aussies is/was owned by them. No Sth African made chains I've seen have been any better or worse than any EU or US made.

Grade 50 (P) as an anchor chain? Unless you're really pushing boat size verses weight in bow carrying ability I can't see any point really. It would have pros and cons like most others. This is as higher grade as I'd use in an anchoring system. It will stretch 'a bit' so can handle 'a bit' of shock leaving traces you can see, fingers crossed and be stronger than anything it is attached to. Unlike a G70 which is basically 'shock, snap, all over rover' and in about the same time frame it took you to read it.
You can check out the Grade 50 in the Island Waterworld Chandlery catalogue:

Island Water World Catalogue 2008 - Page 52
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Old 24-02-2008, 01:43   #8
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Thumbs up Gmac - THANKS A LOT, EXCELLENT EXPLANATION !

and here is the point:

I live in Europe, where DIN766 is generally offered;
would prefer HT - because of higher breaking strength
might use 5/16"HT (weight saving), not 10mm DIN chain.
but: cannot find info about HT link sizes -and Anchorlift claims their gypsies are suitable for both DIN & HT (e.g. "8mm din766 = 5/16HT", "10mm din766 = 3/8HT")

may that be right ?
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Old 24-02-2008, 03:10   #9
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Where in the EU roughly, I know a few places. Or try finding a place that sells chain made by Maggi (The Maggi group, it's run by the 9th generation of the same family, that's pretty cool) in Italy. Their DIN766/A has G40 loads and is good stuff. It's sold widely up there so shouldn't be too hard. And in the UK I know one place that does, there could be more.

Anchorlift do indeed have a gypsy that will take the DIN 8mm and a US 5/16"HT to the 'ISO' standard or at least that's the 'std' they call it. One gypsy will not take both a 8 and 10mm by the way. One will take a range of 8mm's maybe or 10mm's but not both 8 and 10.

Don't get bent about not finding much 'HT' (High Test) in the EU just ask for a Grade 40 (old name) or a Grade M (new name). Same thing, different names. A bit like the EUers tend to call that rope a Octiplait where the US uses Brait and we use 8 Braid, all the same thing.

You can get a 10mm Grade 40 in the EU, it should real easy to find some. I get many many tonnes a year from Italy myself. Try a commercial fishing leaning place. They tend to be a lot more clued up and are vary scared of angry fishermen so have good gear usually.

A 3/8" is only lighter (and by bugger all) than a 10mm because it is a 9.5mm. The Grade has nothing to do with it really.

Try to buy the metric size if in the EU.

RE: Page 52
I'd say just about or all of the right hand column is made in china.

Left hand column -
1st one is a G40 even though they show G30 loads but note the 5:1 safety margin. Sizing is very close to DIN766/A some spot on like the 10mm, the 8mm should be 24mm. Sometimes that 1mm does make a big difference on a winch.
2nd is a G50 built to the US imperial sizing.
3rd is showing BBB sizing but G40 loads, that's a first for me so I'm not sure what to make of that. Especially as it costs more then the next one. Something weird there.
4th is a G4 or HT (same thing) chain to a US sizing.

Trying to cater for 2 markets with minimum size range by the looks. Or maybe the Sth African market 'std' is a mix of all sorts.
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Old 24-02-2008, 07:47   #10
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that's what our supplier offers

Quote:
short-linked, exactly calibrated, first-class welded, hot-dip galvanized. Material ST.35-2 DIN 17115, Available by running meter up to 100 meters. High-Test (HT) chain are also available through Special Order.
is it good enough ?
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Old 25-02-2008, 00:01   #11
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I'd say it probably is. Not sure if I like the phrase 'exactly calibrated' but that could just be a local way of saying things.

DIN17115 is a group of steels, ST35-2 being just one. They are mostly carbon steels, which is a good thing. The group also includes a few alloy steels though but ST35-2 isn't one, again a good thing in this case.

I just had a quick suss of what some chain makers use to find many use DIN17115 group steels but none I can find actually specifically say ST35-2. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing as I don't know what 'everyone' uses. Our guys use some of the Alloy steels from that grouping in their security chains.

So without having a fondle of the chain I'd be guessing it probably is perfectly fine.

By fondle I mean play with in the hand. Grab a handful and jiggle it a bit, it's a bit like crystal glasses. The more it 'tinkles' rather than 'clunks' the higher the grade usually. But saying that chain galvanised to many times also tinkles. Also Mk 1 eyeball can see things like weld quality.

Actually on reading that bit back it sounds more sad then weird. I think I need to get out more. Oh that's right 2 days at work and 3 sailing this week.... Oh yeah, who's the happy puppy then
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Old 25-02-2008, 01:09   #12
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Being overly indulgent with the chains is ok. If it extends to whips and latex as well then I would start to worry

Mike
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Old 25-02-2008, 22:39   #13
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GMac
Being overly indulgent with the chains is ok. If it extends to whips and latex as well then I would start to worry

Mike
Oh bugger, we play with lots of whips. Fender whips should be OK though I hope

Latex no, Goretex Yes
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Old 28-02-2008, 14:25   #14
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re: MAGGI GROUP A7 (+)

GMac, do you know they have factory in China ?! brrrr ... scary ...
and: what about their A7 chain ? is it really so good - can we replace
10mm G30 chain with 8mm A7 (for 14m / 14000 kgs boat) ?
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Old 28-02-2008, 14:38   #15
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Many have factories in china but many are also run by non-chinese management so quality control is a word that should exist in them and does in many.

No I'm not a fan of using a Grade 70 anchor chain unless it is oversized a bit. It is strong for sure but doesn't like shock loads, will give no warning of over loading or impending failure, can't be re-galvanised without serious drama and retesting is a must. It also costs a lot or at least good stuff does.

Find a Grade 50 and I'll be a lot happier
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