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Old 11-11-2015, 10:33   #16
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Re: Catalina 30 fin keel flat sheltered mud beach tidal layover safe?

I wouldn't say you cant do it. You likely can. But I probably wouldn't do it on a light, fin keel boat. I certainly wouldn't try replacing thru hulls that way at any rate. There used to be a rack for doing this a couple places around the Sound...one at Shilshole I believe....
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Old 11-11-2015, 10:35   #17
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Re: Catalina 30 fin keel flat sheltered mud beach tidal layover safe?

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Originally Posted by bradteed View Post
Thank you. These questions are not automatically a money issue... not sure why that always comes up in replies to these types of threads like it does. I simply want to do it on my waterfront if safe to do so with this make/model/size. (like I have for 45 years with my other boats, seaplanes, etc.... a beach cultural thing.)
I did it with our Catalina 25 on the Napa River many years ago.

I was DUMB.

I only anchored fore and aft.

I forgot about the SIDES!!!

The boat CAN fall over even if on soft mud, 'cuz you don't know how deep the mud is.

What they do in Europe is use "LEGS" - VERTICAL wooden members, sometimes with plywood flats placed on the bottom of the legs, tied to stanchions (not such a great idea for the stanchion bases!!!) or to toe rials (if ya have 'em, and Catalina 30s don't).

Good luck.

PS - I wouldn't do it with my current boat. Ever. I haulout every two to five years and have a diver every three months. $1500 even over two years is $750 per year or $62.50 per month. Beats a dead sunk boat.
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Old 11-11-2015, 10:51   #18
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Re: Catalina 30 fin keel flat sheltered mud beach tidal layover safe?

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I Grew up on the shores of Puget Sound and we careened all manner of boats every season. You should have no issue with the keel, rudder or refloating. Make very certain ahead of time that there are no small rocks where she will land.

If you enjoy digging clams on your beach then think hard about tainting them with bottom paint.

Don't really understand your aversion to laying her against a wharf other than you don't have one in front of your home.

If your beach is in a protected cove, no issues. If the wind could pipe up and pound her as the tide returns, not so good.

Anchor her fore and aft and careen the mast up the beach.

We owned Treasure Island in Port Madison for a decade and every weekend we would get unintentional careenings onto our clam beds. Never saw a boat take water before lifting.
Thank you Seasick. This is very helpful first hand experience of local careening. I might build a tide grid next to my dock eventually.

I'm really just checking to see if the Catalina 30 will come back up easily on an ideal mud relatively flat beach (without any rocks underneath. I walk it all the time in low tide dry.), or if I need to move it to a steep beach so she sits more upright if I choose to careen. The talk of batteries leaking, tanks leaking, gear shifting, etc. is helpful as reminders to expect and prepare for a steep heel angle, but not my primary concern of "how well does a Catalina 30 specifically, rise from the flat from the careened resting angle". Thanks again everyone. I'm getting the idea that intentional careening is not popular and generally discouraged in sailing culture these days, but I'm wondering if it is due to rational bad experiences and sound reasoning, or possibly just not done by many such that many others feel it is something very bad to do.

Besides all of this, wouldn't it be really nice to know before an unintentional grounding someday that we can just relax if on good soft ground? On my 24 foot boat I grew up sailing, if I sailed into a sandbar and got stuck enough, I simply knew it would be a 12 hour tide wait before I could get her back off, and it was time to clean the hull, inspect, grab a sandwich, and nap! :-)
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Old 11-11-2015, 11:02   #19
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Re: Catalina 30 fin keel flat sheltered mud beach tidal layover safe?

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Thank you Seasick. This is very helpful first hand experience of local careening. I might build a tide grid next to my dock eventually.

I'm really just checking to see if the Catalina 30 will come back up easily on an ideal mud relatively flat beach (without any rocks underneath. I walk it all the time in low tide dry.), or if I need to move it to a steep beach so she sits more upright if I choose to careen. The talk of batteries leaking, tanks leaking, gear shifting, etc. is helpful as reminders to expect and prepare for a steep heel angle, but not my primary concern of "how well does a Catalina 30 specifically, rise from the flat from the careened resting angle". Thanks again everyone. I'm getting the idea that intentional careening is not popular and generally discouraged in sailing culture these days, but I'm wondering if it is due to rational bad experiences and sound reasoning, or possibly just not done by many such that many others feel it is something very bad to do.

Besides all of this, wouldn't it be really nice to know before an unintentional grounding someday that we can just relax if on good soft ground? On my 24 foot boat I grew up sailing, if I sailed into a sandbar and got stuck enough, I simply knew it would be a 12 hour tide wait before I could get her back off, and it was time to clean the hull, inspect, grab a sandwich, and nap! :-)
Just do it and see what happens. In the old days, careening was done on a slope or with very short keeled boats. Too bad Butler has passed on. He could tell you how much the boat might twist. Still think your going to sink her.
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Old 11-11-2015, 11:09   #20
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Re: Catalina 30 fin keel flat sheltered mud beach tidal layover safe?

I spent much of my youth on Manzanita Bay on Bainbridge Island. Every year we just laid our boats against a single piling on the pier with a very slight list. Never had one fall over but I know a few friends that did.

If you've ever experienced a full spinaker knock down in that boat, you will have likely had her over as far as she'll ever get on the beach.

Were I you, I'd tie her off well to the pier, let her lay against a piling with minimal heel and inspect both sides at once. It's really not that big a deal. I like to tie them with the dock lines running clear across the deck to the far side so that if something gets hung up she leans more into the piling than away.

I have down this with fin keeled spade rudder IOR designs and our 130' topsail schooner in the Bay of Fundy where you really have to scrub like a mad man.
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Old 11-11-2015, 11:24   #21
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Re: Catalina 30 fin keel flat sheltered mud beach tidal layover safe?

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I spent much of my youth on Manzanita Bay on Bainbridge Island. Every year we just laid our boats against a single piling on the pier with a very slight list. Never had one fall over but I know a few friends that did.

If you've ever experienced a full spinaker knock down in that boat, you will have likely had her over as far as she'll ever get on the beach.

Were I you, I'd tie her off well to the pier, let her lay against a piling with minimal heel and inspect both sides at once. It's really not that big a deal. I like to tie them with the dock lines running clear across the deck to the far side so that if something gets hung up she leans more into the piling than away.

I have down this with fin keeled spade rudder IOR designs and our 130' topsail schooner in the Bay of Fundy where you really have to scrub like a mad man.
Seasick-- Thanks again. Much appreciated. I'd use my own dock pilings now instead of waiting to build a cradle, but I know those pilings were set in the 1940's and I don't want to trust them with any sideloads (though I know the sideload would be essentially zero if placed correctly... and I had done this once with my 24 footer just fine, about 15 years ago.) Thanks for the tie across deck to far side tip, makes sense. I've had this one heeled to 35 degrees as a test with main and genoa before I backed off to sail her much more flat like everyone recommends for these catalinas.
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Old 11-11-2015, 12:39   #22
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Re: Catalina 30 fin keel flat sheltered mud beach tidal layover safe?

I've owned 13 catalinas and 3 of those were 30's. Still, I would not do it not because the boat would not stand it but because you're going to put incredible loads on the rig, chain plates, bulkheads, keel bolts etc. Not to mention the hull to deck joint from the hull (topsides) above the water line now lying on the ground at some angle.
Granted they have (not really the topsides) loads on them under sail but the boat was not designed to set over on her side on any thing but water.
You may not see any damage right away but I think you'll stress the rig and bulkheads eventually.
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Old 11-11-2015, 12:40   #23
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Re: Catalina 30 fin keel flat sheltered mud beach tidal layover safe?

Frank Butler (catalina yachts owner) is 86 and very much alive
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Old 11-11-2015, 12:47   #24
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Re: Catalina 30 fin keel flat sheltered mud beach tidal layover safe?

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I think the main issue will be re-floating. What stops the boat from slowly flooding as the water rises? On my boat, water would enter through the anchor locker, the dorades, the cockpit hatch, the lockers in the cockpit, and so on. If these leaks are too fast, the boat will never float.

All the tanks rely on on vents with a U lock in them. As soon as the boat is on its side, they no longer work and you'll get leaks from all the tanks.
The aft lazerrete will definitely leak into the bilge (rate depending on the boat)
The sail locker (port side) will pour water into the bilge - there's typically a pretty good drain hole at the bottom of that one.
The starboard cockpit locker would have been sealed from leaking into the boat.

The companionway is really wide on a C-30. I dunno if water would get that high though, it's a beamy boat.

The hulls (particularly the earlier ones) are tough and thick. The keel attachment is just bolts. The rudder stock is a 2" pipe. Not hard to bend a rudder on a C-30.
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Old 11-11-2015, 13:10   #25
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Re: Catalina 30 fin keel flat sheltered mud beach tidal layover safe?

As an aside: my friend John Adams who designed Ivars Salmon House, laid his Monk/Garden/Adams collaboration, 35' Westry against his pier in Port Madison. She fell over.

A friend sailed by so he jumped aboard for a jaunt.

When they got back in an hour, the first responders had arrived with shovels.

"What's all the excitement" he asked. "Never seen someone careen their boat."

There were many very relieved family and friends that afternoon.
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Old 11-11-2015, 13:25   #26
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Re: Catalina 30 fin keel flat sheltered mud beach tidal layover safe?

Jeepbluetj gave you te only good answer - call Catalina Yachts in Woodland Hills (near Los Angeles).
That said, those that said that water wood fill the boat and she'd not float are full of it. I've laid my Cal 39 (draws 6'9") over. Water does not get up to the companion way nor to the ports nor to the dorade boxes, nor to the vents for the fuel and water tanks. The only question that I would have is about the structural strengths of the various junctions (stress concentration areas) that would be affected. That would be something that the builder/designer could tell you - but probably wouldn't. Various boat professionals have been sued by people that asked their advice and didn't follow it correctly. The plaintiff loses the suit, but the boat professional stops giving advice that could possibly be misconstrued or misunderstood or not followed to-the-letter because "I don't need the headaches, lawyers calling me while eating dinner, - - -". So unless it is about something that couldn't go wrong under any circumstances (a large power boat throws a BIG wake?) the advice will be "just have it hauled".
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Old 11-11-2015, 13:32   #27
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Re: Catalina 30 fin keel flat sheltered mud beach tidal layover safe?

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Jeepbluetj gave you te only good answer - call Catalina Yachts in Woodland Hills (near Los Angeles).
CY moved to Florida years ago, there may still be a few folks in CA but I'm not sure, but doubt it.

Their phone # should be on their website www.catalinayachts,com
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Old 11-11-2015, 13:44   #28
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Re: Catalina 30 fin keel flat sheltered mud beach tidal layover safe?

Hey! You had a Columbia 24! Me too. Great boat. I had mine careened unintentionally when some very impolite folks untied my anchor line and let it drift onto the beach hoping to "salvage" it. As you know those boats have solid, molded in keels with lots of glass. There was zero damage even though I found the boat rocking in the surf and the harbor patrol yanked it out of the surf line with their boat. Alas, I would not be as confident about the Catalina, which is a perfectly good boat. It might be ok, I just wouldn't risk it. I think most folks don't careen anymore, even where they can, because boats aren't built the way they used to be!
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Old 11-11-2015, 14:41   #29
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Re: Catalina 30 fin keel flat sheltered mud beach tidal layover safe?

---Quote (Originally by reed1v)---
Quote:
You probably will sink it. There will not be any buoyancy until the water reaches half way up the cabin sides as the tide comes in. Need to seal off all openings so water will not fill the interior.
Though I can not say this has never happened to others, it is highly unlikely to happen to a Catalina 30. As the tide comes in, it is only lifting the hull. The keel with all its weight is the last thing to leave the sand and by this time, the boat is upright.
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Old 11-11-2015, 14:44   #30
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Re: Catalina 30 fin keel flat sheltered mud beach tidal layover safe?

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---Quote (Originally by reed1v)---


Though I can not say this has never happened to others, it is highly unlikely to happen to a Catalina 30. As the tide comes in, it is only lifting the hull. The keel with all its weight is the last thing to leave the sand and by this time, the boat is upright.
I don't understand this at all.

If the boat has slipped sideways and is at a 45 degree angle, it appears to me that the water could enter the cockpit before the hull would start to float.
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